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What flavor of Baptist are you?
- Thread starter FreeBaptist
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When did he publish that info?
In 1969 Dr. L Duane Brown copyrighted his book " Biblical Basis For Baptists" in 1969
This booklet was updated in 2009 By Dr Brown and his son Daniel Brown
FreeBaptist
Member
In 1969 Dr. L Duane Brown copyrighted his book " Biblical Basis For Baptists" in 1969
This booklet was updated in 2009 By Dr Brown and his son Daniel Brown
I don't know.
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You realize this is a Landmark document
FreeBaptist
Member
Yes, I do, but that doesn't matter because these are the same Baptist distinctives that can be found on many other sites.
Soul Liberty dictates how we as Christians should treat each other. It's not a view on the process of salvation. Romans 14:1-12 is a good place to start, if you're unfamiliar with the concept.Soul Liberty means Baptists do not believe in compulsion. God offers the lost salvation, and each individual chooses to put their faith in Christ or not. The alternate view (also held by a flavor of baptist) is we are incapable of choosing Christ, and must be enabled through irresistible grace, in order to believe. Arminians believe we are able to choose (enabled from the get go by prevenient grace) and Calvinists believe we are unable to choose unless enabled by "irresistible" (compelling) grace."
A third flavor believes our fallen and corrupted nature did not incapacitate us from choosing Christ.
Hi Rob, I highlighted (in red) the part of my post which I think you say is invalid.
Here is what I found in researching the doctrine:
I. THE DOCTRINE OF INDIVIDUAL SOUL LIBERTY
A. Definition.
Basically it means that God has given freedom and the ability of persons to know and respond to God’s will.
Now you may hold a different view, but that does not make my view wrong.
Here is the link to my source: Baptist Distinctives - Casteel
Here is another blurb from another source:
1. Christ emphasized individual decisions to obey God and follow Him Matthew 7:24-27 says, "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
And of course John 3:16 instructs us to believe in Him.
Nothing in your referenced passage conflicts with what I said, and supported as a published view. I certainly agree we can choose to treat others as we wish to be treated, persuaded and not coerced. But don't you see, that capacity to choose the will of God in relations with other people is the same soul liberty that allows us to choose a relationship with Christ. Either we are able to understand and strive to do the will of God, or we do not have soul liberty, but rather soul slavery to sin. In for a penny, in for a dollar.
You're moving the goal posts on this one. Discussion on salvation is certainly something worth talking about.
But Soul Liberty, as normally discussed as a baptist distinctive, is not tied specifically to soteriology. Soul Liberty deals with food, music, forms of worship, bible versions, and a host of other details that divide us. You can't change the meaning of the term just to find another avenue to grind your axe against Calvinists.
Hi Rob, I can certainly see your view and my view differ. However, your goal posts moved my goal posts just as far as my goal posts moved yours. I do not know the basis of "normally discussed" but in a Cal leaning group, I can see where blinders might limit discussion to doctrine that matches preconceptions.
The alternate meaning is found in the published cites, I did not invent it. You simply deny the existence of actual soul liberty rather than soul slavery.
I certainly agree we can choose to treat others as we wish to be treated, persuaded and not coerced. But don't you see, that the capacity to choose the will of God in relations with other people is the same soul liberty that allows us to choose a relationship with Christ. Either we are able to understand and strive to do the will of God, or we do not have soul liberty, but rather soul slavery to sin. In for a penny, in for a dollar.
The alternate meaning is found in the published cites, I did not invent it. You simply deny the existence of actual soul liberty rather than soul slavery.
I certainly agree we can choose to treat others as we wish to be treated, persuaded and not coerced. But don't you see, that the capacity to choose the will of God in relations with other people is the same soul liberty that allows us to choose a relationship with Christ. Either we are able to understand and strive to do the will of God, or we do not have soul liberty, but rather soul slavery to sin. In for a penny, in for a dollar.
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My opinion is that in its earliest usage soul liberty was the idea that individuals have the right to approach God according to his or her own conscience, without the fear of retribution of kings, governors, or other sources of authority. Later, once that kind of liberty was achieved, the idea has been tweaked to include other sorts of things.
Baptist church historian Bill Leonard on the meaning of the term Soul Liberty:
"Baptists—believed that the church is to be composed of believers only—those who can claim an experience of grace in their hearts. Efforts to thwart divine activity in drawing people to faith—to usurp the work of the Spirit by enforcing certain faith perspectives—were human creations that were unacceptable. God alone is judge of conscience, and therefore neither state nor established church can (in terms of salvation) judge the conscience....Conscience should be free under God to act on its own without state sanctions."
"Baptists—believed that the church is to be composed of believers only—those who can claim an experience of grace in their hearts. Efforts to thwart divine activity in drawing people to faith—to usurp the work of the Spirit by enforcing certain faith perspectives—were human creations that were unacceptable. God alone is judge of conscience, and therefore neither state nor established church can (in terms of salvation) judge the conscience....Conscience should be free under God to act on its own without state sanctions."
Hi Rob, I posted where others put forth my view. But you claimed I was the only one.
Here is another blurb:
Revelation 3:20 says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." This verse pictures the Lord outside the door of the Laodicean church, asking the church to admit Him. He does not break down the door and force Himself on the church. The individuals of that church could either choose to accept Him or to reject Him. If they rejected Him they would suffer the tragic consequences of doing so.
For you to continue deny that individual soul liberty must include the ability to choose to believe in Jesus, is to deny the very essence of soul liberty.
Here is another blurb:
Revelation 3:20 says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." This verse pictures the Lord outside the door of the Laodicean church, asking the church to admit Him. He does not break down the door and force Himself on the church. The individuals of that church could either choose to accept Him or to reject Him. If they rejected Him they would suffer the tragic consequences of doing so.
For you to continue deny that individual soul liberty must include the ability to choose to believe in Jesus, is to deny the very essence of soul liberty.
Where does that blurb mention Soul Liberty? I must have missed it. Looks like a commentary on soteriology, which you are conflating with Soul Liberty.
I scanned through your earlier link to Casteel, and unless I missed something, it looks like he agrees with me. (Or was that someone else's link? Hard to tell with al of the quotes.)
THE DOCTRINE OF INDIVIDUAL SOUL LIBERTY
A. Definition.
Basically it means that God has given freedom and the ability of persons to know and respond to God’s will.
This blurb mentions soul liberty.
As far as the commentary on Revelation 3:20, the blurb was included under "II. Biblical Indications of Soul Liberty, section C, sub paragraph 3.
Soul Liberty requires the ability to follow God's will or not. Otherwise we are redefining it to be be Soul Slavery to Sin. Not the same thing, not even close, moving the goal posts to the next county.
A. Definition.
Basically it means that God has given freedom and the ability of persons to know and respond to God’s will.
This blurb mentions soul liberty.
As far as the commentary on Revelation 3:20, the blurb was included under "II. Biblical Indications of Soul Liberty, section C, sub paragraph 3.
Soul Liberty requires the ability to follow God's will or not. Otherwise we are redefining it to be be Soul Slavery to Sin. Not the same thing, not even close, moving the goal posts to the next county.
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Some claim although, in their opinion, we cannot choose to seek God and believe in Jesus, we will be punished for rejecting Christ. This is not a view of Soul Liberty, but a view of Soul Slavery to Sin.
"The Meaning of Soul Competency
What does “soul competency” mean? Various terms have been used for this concept, such as soul freedom, freedom of conscience and soul competency. Basically it means the God-given freedom and ability of persons to know and respond to God’s will. Baptists believe that God gives people competency—that is ability—to make choices. Human beings are not puppets or machines."
Hi Rob, you have twice made charges I am conflating, but the sources present my view dead center.
What does “soul competency” mean? Various terms have been used for this concept, such as soul freedom, freedom of conscience and soul competency. Basically it means the God-given freedom and ability of persons to know and respond to God’s will. Baptists believe that God gives people competency—that is ability—to make choices. Human beings are not puppets or machines."
Hi Rob, you have twice made charges I am conflating, but the sources present my view dead center.
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When I was about 15, I gave my life to Christ, and was baptized in an American Baptist Church. In the early 1970's, my wife and I moved to my home in San Clemente, and joined the First Baptist Church, affiliated with Conservative Baptists.
However, as I studied God's word, I slowly formulated my views which match the Baptist Distinctives, authority of God's word, One God in Three Persons, Jesus is God and Man, born of a virgin, lived sinlessly, died for all mankind, arose on the third day, and ascended into Heaven, where He sits at the right hand of God as our mediator.
I am a one point Calvinist (P), two point Arminian (Conditional individual election and Christ died for all mankind) and I believe redemption and forgiveness occurs when God credits our faith as righteousness and transfers us spiritually into Christ.
However, as I studied God's word, I slowly formulated my views which match the Baptist Distinctives, authority of God's word, One God in Three Persons, Jesus is God and Man, born of a virgin, lived sinlessly, died for all mankind, arose on the third day, and ascended into Heaven, where He sits at the right hand of God as our mediator.
I am a one point Calvinist (P), two point Arminian (Conditional individual election and Christ died for all mankind) and I believe redemption and forgiveness occurs when God credits our faith as righteousness and transfers us spiritually into Christ.
A Summary of the Bible’s Teachings on Soul Competency
In brief, the Bible sets forth these truths in regard to soul competency:
–Individuals have a God-given competency to know God and his will.
–God, who is sovereign over all creation, has provided this freedom.
–This competency is a gift from God and not a human creation.
–Persons therefore are free to make choices; they are not puppets.
–God does not force or coerce compliance with his will; neither faith nor love can be forced.
–With this competency and freedom comes responsibility and accountability. Choices have consequences.
–In exercising soul freedom, a person should seek insight from members of the faith community, both present and past.
–The individual is responsible for choices. Faith response must be by the individual and not by a group of which the individual is part.
–Governments and religious organizations ought not force persons to belong to any particular church, confess any specific creed or conform to any form of worship. To do so violates liberty of conscience and flies in the face of God’s will for his creation.
[from this link: Is Soul Competency THE Baptist Distinctive? ]
Obviously, the Baptist views in red do not fit with many non-baptist doctrines.
In brief, the Bible sets forth these truths in regard to soul competency:
–Individuals have a God-given competency to know God and his will.
–God, who is sovereign over all creation, has provided this freedom.
–This competency is a gift from God and not a human creation.
–Persons therefore are free to make choices; they are not puppets.
–God does not force or coerce compliance with his will; neither faith nor love can be forced.
–With this competency and freedom comes responsibility and accountability. Choices have consequences.
–In exercising soul freedom, a person should seek insight from members of the faith community, both present and past.
–The individual is responsible for choices. Faith response must be by the individual and not by a group of which the individual is part.
–Governments and religious organizations ought not force persons to belong to any particular church, confess any specific creed or conform to any form of worship. To do so violates liberty of conscience and flies in the face of God’s will for his creation.
[from this link: Is Soul Competency THE Baptist Distinctive? ]
Obviously, the Baptist views in red do not fit with many non-baptist doctrines.