What Happened "On That Day"? Genesis 2:17

[timtofly]

I don’t know if a demon can die, but a demon is not physical, and only physical things die as far as I can tell. The lake of fire IS the second death; it isn’t just the CAUSE OF the second death. Unbelievers are resurrected (meaning their bodies are living again) before they are thrown into the lake of fire.
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The soul is joined with the demon, that is the resurrection of death. Both are cast into the lake of fire. Demons are spiritually dead. They can be thousands (a legion) in one human physical body. But the resurrection at the GWT is spiritual. That means the soul is re-united with the demon. In the case of those, the spirit is in demon form as pointed out, total darkness. When the church is complete the soul will be united with the spirit. The glorified body like Jesus, and presumably Moses and Elijah had on the mount of Transfiguration.

Both Moses and Elijah already have their glorified spirit bodies, because they were already in heaven and never in sheol. Jude 1 explains that Satan never took possession of Moses into sheol. Elijah is Enoch who has come from and entered heaven several times. They are the two witnesses of the OT. The only way they could have appeared with Jesus in Jesus' glorified form was that God allowed them to be His two OT Witnesses. They were not to be worshipped, but were examples of the restoration of Adam and the physical and spiritual death that happened when Adam disobeyed God.

The soul cannot die. That is why the second death is eternal, and not the end of life. The issue is not the form of the physical and spirit. Does the soul have form at all? In science fiction it is referenced as the "ghost in the shell".

When Adam physically died the flesh was no longer incorruptible. The shell was once unable to die. It was incorruptible. The shell of flesh on that day did die, it changed from incorruption to corruption. The soul of Adam and Eve, left one shell and entered a dead shell. The old shell died, and in death, they died in spirit as well. The spirit or "glory of God" part is now with God. All humanity at conception have a spirit in God’s presence. All are in the Lamb's book of life. Also the Holy Spirit seals all. The issue stems from the fact the soul is more inclined to go with the carnal dead flesh.

The natural man takes over and is in control. This trend effects the spirit in God's presence. At some point the reprobate mind, causes the spirit to leave God's presence and seek a host in other mortal humans. At that point God can declare, I never knew you. Not that God does not know us, but because our spirit is no longer in communication with God. Paul taught all of this except in the reverse process, when the church would be restored as sons of God.

Being born of Adam does place us in a dead state. But it is not total death without hope as some claim. That is why childhood is so important to God. Early childhood may determine the final outcome. But even in old age one can still turn to God. And contrary to false teaching an elect person cannot live a depraved life and miraculously change in the end because they were elected. Nor will natural depravity prevent any from accepting God’s Atonement. It is still a choice between each human ever born, to follow God or not. Sin is still death, even to those who believe. Sin has sway, until death, and sin is no longer able to effect the outcome of a soul after death.

 

[Derf B]

The soul is joined with the demon, that is the resurrection of death. Both are cast into the lake of fire. Demons are spiritually dead. They can be thousands (a legion) in one human physical body. But the resurrection at the GWT is spiritual. That means the soul is re-united with the demon. In the case of those, the spirit is in demon form as pointed out, total darkness. When the church is complete the soul will be united with the spirit. The glorified body like Jesus, and presumably Moses and Elijah had on the mount of Transfiguration.

Both Moses and Elijah already have their glorified spirit bodies, because they were already in heaven and never in sheol. Jude 1 explains that Satan never took possession of Moses into sheol. Elijah is Enoch who has come from and entered heaven several times. They are the two witnesses of the OT. The only way they could have appeared with Jesus in Jesus' glorified form was that God allowed them to be His two OT Witnesses. They were not to be worshipped, but were examples of the restoration of Adam and the physical and spiritual death that happened when Adam disobeyed God.

The soul cannot die. That is why the second death is eternal, and not the end of life. The issue is not the form of the physical and spirit. Does the soul have form at all? In science fiction it is referenced as the "ghost in the shell".

When Adam physically died the flesh was no longer incorruptible. The shell was once unable to die. It was incorruptible. The shell of flesh on that day did die, it changed from incorruption to corruption. The soul of Adam and Eve, left one shell and entered a dead shell. The old shell died, and in death, they died in spirit as well. The spirit or "glory of God" part is now with God. All humanity at conception have a spirit in God’s presence. All are in the Lamb's book of life. Also the Holy Spirit seals all. The issue stems from the fact the soul is more inclined to go with the carnal dead flesh.

The natural man takes over and is in control. This trend effects the spirit in God's presence. At some point the reprobate mind, causes the spirit to leave God's presence and seek a host in other mortal humans. At that point God can declare, I never knew you. Not that God does not know us, but because our spirit is no longer in communication with God. Paul taught all of this except in the reverse process, when the church would be restored as sons of God.

Being born of Adam does place us in a dead state. But it is not total death without hope as some claim. That is why childhood is so important to God. Early childhood may determine the final outcome. But even in old age one can still turn to God. And contrary to false teaching an elect person cannot live a depraved life and miraculously change in the end because they were elected. Nor will natural depravity prevent any from accepting God’s Atonement. It is still a choice between each human ever born, to follow God or not. Sin is still death, even to those who believe. Sin has sway, until death, and sin is no longer able to effect the outcome of a soul after death.

I must admit, and admire, Tim, that you write plenty of stuff. But you’re all over the place doctrinally, writing things that have little or no support in scripture.

For instance, scripture gives no evidence for what you said about The soul being joined with a demon.

 

[37818]

In reality isn't the thought there the born again from above, children.

Wednesday night my 12th grandchild was born, IMHO presently, right now, he must be born from above (again) to see and or enter and or inherit the kingdom of God.

Sorry did not read your last line.

How can children who are not of an age to discern between good and evil even be of an age to believe in any kind of a savior? How are their names in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, unless their names are for some reason placed there before hand? How did the people of Israel and Moses have their names in God's book, Exodus 32:33? Psalms 69:27-28? 1 John 2:2; 1 John 5:19.

 

[timtofly]

I must admit, and admire, Tim, that you write plenty of stuff. But you’re all over the place doctrinally, writing things that have little or no support in scripture.

For instance, scripture gives no evidence for what you said about The soul being joined with a demon.

Scriptures do not say much at all on the second death.

 

[Derf B]

Scriptures do not say much at all on the second death.

It says a fair amount about it, including DEFINING it. But scriptures say NOTHING about demons being joined to humans as comprising the resurrection.


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[percho]

How can children who are not of an age to discern between good and evil even be of an age to believe in any kind of a savior? How are their names in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, unless their names are for some reason placed there before hand? How did the people of Israel and Moses have their names in God's book, Exodus 32:33? Psalms 69:27-28? 1 John 2:2; 1 John 5:19.

Ex 32:33 ?

For all have sinned, Rom 3:23
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, Gal 3:22

Does that mean all have been blotted out?

Adam was made out of the dust of the ground. Flesh and blood with the soul of the flesh being in the blood Lev 17:11. All since him have been born of the flesh and flesh is.

John 3:3 & 5,6 literally say nothing more than 1 Cor 15:50,51

Does not matter if one is a day old or a 1000 years old.

 

[church mouse guy]

I will check with my old co-founder of the Baptist Board, Barnabas Halo. I think he was around back then.

Seriously, there is such little information (2 chapters in Genesis) that all we can make are educated guesses.

And I'm not that educated. (I would guess that after Eden, the nature of animals changed . . . just like the nature of humans changed).

Ark Encounter in Williamstown, Kentucky, has the animals caged and snakes in jars with cloth covers so they seem to imply the animals didn't get along although the animals were vegetarians as were the 8 people on the Ark.

Do you believe in millions and millions of years?

 

[37818]

Does that mean all have been blotted out?

What it means is anyone can be blotted out. Only those whose name is not written in God's book at the Judgement will perish, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 20:15.

See 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Do you believe in millions and millions of years?

Since what? Creation? Probably 10-12k. NO historic evidence of civilization/man older than that (except games of so-called science trying to date rocks, etc).

Think the BB has a forum to discuss Creation v Evolution (tho I opt to not visit it with my limited on-line presence). Ask the question there.

 

[percho]

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. KJV Gen 2:17

Does for imply, if? Is, "for." the best translation?

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46 KJV

I believe, "in that day," the living soul, the natural man, fulfilled the destiny. of his creation.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV

 

[church mouse guy]

Since what? Creation? Probably 10-12k. NO historic evidence of civilization/man older than that (except games of so-called science trying to date rocks, etc).

Think the BB has a forum to discuss Creation v Evolution (tho I opt to not visit it with my limited on-line presence). Ask the question there.

Thanks!

 

[Derf B]

Ex 32:33 ?

For all have sinned, Rom 3:23
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, Gal 3:22

Does that mean all have been blotted out?

.

YES! That's exactly what that means. All have sinned, all have been blotted out, or at least WILL be, except for the saving grace of Jesus. God's book of life is exactly that--those who are alive and will remain so. Those who are dead, or are going to die, are not in the book of life.

Ex 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (the wages of sin is death)

34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. (the wages of sin is death)

35 And the Lord plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Blotting out of the book seems to be talking about physical life. Even in Rev 20, the people had been resurrected. They are physically alive (maybe different from our current mortal bodies, but still having a physical body of some type direclty associated with the physical body they had before death).
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (they were dead, and then they lived again after 1000 years)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (they were alive now, and their names were not found among those that were to stay living)

 

[SleekB]

Why did God say to Adam that he would die on the day that should he eat of the forbidden fruit when he clearly did not die on that day? It never seemed quite satisfactory that God meant that he would only begin to die after the Fall happened, that Adam would not die until almost a millennium later. I am not denying that this was also true, that there was certainly a great change in nature from that very time of disobedience. But this does not really account for all of what was implied in the divine prohibition. And it dances around the phrase "in that day".

First of all, there must be a distinction between what God threatened and what He carried out.

Second, we do not need to go far afield to imagine what the Hebrew here might mean. We have the context to guide us. Specifically, in order to know what is meant by "in that day" we only need to see how the phrase is used in a nearby parallel verse. Satan told Eve, Gen. 3:5:

"God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Now, are we also going allow for a time lapse here? I think not. The eye-opening was immediate. It happened on that day - just as Satan said. (On this point the Serpent was correct, although he connived to let Eve connect the other dots according to his own plan.)

So neither was a lapse of time with the death. death happened that very day. But for Adam and Eve it was not a personal death. It was a substitutionary death. This brings us the third point, to Genesis 3:21:

"The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."

What were these garments of skin? They were from animals that had to be killed. The animal (or animals) had to die because of the sin of Adam and Eve. This was the beginning of the sacrificial system. How did Abel later know just how to perform an acceptable sacrifice? He must have learned it from his dad. And Cain, for whatever reason, seemed to not put as much stock into this.

In Genesis we have two faint pictures of the redemption story, the Protovangelion in Genesis 3:15 and this one in verse 21.

Adam did not die physically that day. That death that was threatened against him and Eve was a comprehensive death. Physical, spiritual, and eternal. If God had not provided clothing for them, if they had not put on that clothing, they would have died in every way that very day.

But, thank God, He allowed them to put on that clothing - just as we put on Christ, the Lamb of God.

I could be wrong, but I think the verse is correct as is, and gives an age that Adam and Eve would be seen as at their creation. They would have been 25 to 27-ish, because it is within the range of time that the human body can no longer create new cells equal to the rate that cells die. So the body of anyone, that reaches the age that they were when they ate the fruit, will switch from replacing dead cells with new cells at an equal rate, and will at some point wear out and die as a whole. They could have stayed at that young age forever with the tree of life, but once they ate the fruit and were kicked out, humans would grow old, and turn to dust. So on that day, the body did die; slowly, but it was a death.

 

[Derf B]

Seems like we ran out of steam here. If I can throw in a final thought, there are s few ways to interpret the words in this passage that are consistent with orthodoxy, and we can disagree civilly. But when we take a particular interpretation and use it as evidence for another point of doctrine, we should be careful that we have plenty of other support, as this passage isn’t going to be a slam dunk.


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