What happens first?

Thank you for putting this truth is such easy to understand words. :thumbs:

 

Faith is indeed given by God !

Of course faith is given by God . It is by His grace that anyone is saved . It is not manufactured by human means , that's for sure -- hence it is supernatural i.e. from God .

No one can come to God under their own power . Psalm 65:4 : Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts !

Isaiah 65:1 and quoted in Romans 10:20 : I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me ; I was found by those who did not seek me .

It does not , therefore , depend on human desire or effort , but on God's mercy . ( Romans 9:16 )

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth . ( James 1:18 )

children born not of natural descent , nor of human decision or a husband's will , but born of God . ( John 1:13 )

For God , who said , Let light shine out of darkness , made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ . ( 2 Cor. 4:6 )

God gives those who are His repentance also -- see Acts 5:31 ; Acts 11:18 ; and 2 Timothy 2:25 .

 

Amen Terry!:laugh:

Amen DHK:laugh:

To say God requires and then say you can't do it is just not what the Bible teaches.

The red is what is the predestination and not the individuals. (Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world).

Then the Scripture goes on to bring this generation in and the Gentiles by saying "after that ye believed". Also, belief is something that comes from you by choice that God gave man when He created him and made him subject to vanity but not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope. If only they could understand what this Scripture is saying but to try and get the to understand is "vanity". :laugh:

 

Individuals were not predestinated?
What about this:

That is WHOM, not what.

How to you explain that?

 

The "whom" were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son...not to become believers.

 

I ask you again. Are you Glorified???:laugh:

 

Now, you know that is not what the Scripture says 2B.:laugh:

 

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Wonder why it says they are already Glorified? Do you know? :laugh:

 

I know Jesus is Glorified I was just wondering about those He foreknew and did Predestinate? You answer just does not explain that to where I understand.:wavey:

 

This passage is so clear that I don't know how you are missing it but I will try to explain.

2Bhizown is right, it is showing the way in which it works. Some of us are still alive and are not glorified just yet but that certainly does not change the truth of the scripture.

Please stop side stepping though.

What DOES it mean then?
What IS predestined?

 

How! In the name of all goodness is this sidestepping?
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

It plainly says those whom He did foreknew and predestinate He glorified. You have no problem of him pre choosing you but now you do have a problem with the glorification. WoW!!! and call me "sidestepping". You always have a way of bringing the worst out in people. It is early in the morning here and I am trying to sit here and enjoy a cup of coffee. You said you were 25, do you ever work?

 

I always looked at it that we are glorified and redeemed in the inner man. but the outer man rests in hope of these things. I beieve we have taken part in the first resurrection in Christ and the second death has no power over us, so our flesh can rest in hope.That the inner man is perfect and with out sin but the outer man has not passed from death unto life yet. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. This would be the redemption and being glorified of the outer man.

 

So, he only predestinated the inner man and only foreknew the inner man?

Truthfully, I agree with you Jeremy. I just wanted to see if they knew. I agree with all except the foreknew and predestinated. I see that as follows:

Romans, chapter 9
18": Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

"19": Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

"20": Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

"21": Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

"22": What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

"23": And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

"24": Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

"25": As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

"26": And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

How could this Scripture be to us who was not the beloved and not His people?


Exodus, chapter 33

"5": For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
"12": And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

"13": Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

"14": And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

"15": And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

"16": For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

"17": And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

"18": And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

"19": And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

It was bringing Israel out of bondage down in the land of Egypt.


Ephesians, chapter 1

"11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"12": That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

(We are not of them who first trusted in Christ but the Apostles were)

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


He plainly shows the difference in the two in the above Scripture and we are of those who "also trusted" How could we be pre chosen if we were not His people?raise:

 

I believe the outward man is predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son. The inner man already is passed from death unto life. The outward man is going to be ressurected with a new body like unto Jesus Christ most Glorious body. The inner man is already Glorified but the outward man or Flesh is going to be.
Ephesian 1:13 ...
who first trusted in Christ, yep thats the apostles and the ones that were with him.
In whom you also trusted, The In whom is key, they were already in Christ. they are his workmanship created in Christ. in whom also after that ye believed. well how did they believe. First of all it was in Christ(IN WHOM ) that they believed the gospel of their salvation. because outside Christ, man is just dead and the preaching of the gospel is foolishness I cor. 1:18
look in the same chapter verse :19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.
we believe according to his power.
after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Pomise. (not Holy but holy)
What is the holy Spirit of Promise. its in the same chapter verse :18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

God has seven spirits Rev.1:4, 3:1
one is the Spirit of Promise which is our hope of eternal life
the spirit of adoption causes us to cry abba, father Romans 8:15
the spirit of wisdom Ephesian 1:17 ........

This is how I see it Brother Bob.

 

No. Both of those ideas are either convenient eisogesis or simply extra-biblical.

Paul's conversion was during the apostolic period and unique due to his being born out of season. He met Christ Himself in physical form. Notably, he wasn't looking for Him... and certainly did not "choose" to be chosen.

Scripture is clear that knowledge of the gospel comes by hearing the preaching of the Word of God. It gives no other means whatsoever... you must force an unreasonable interpretation onto the text to make it any different.

I understand why you must believe this. It was another thing I struggled with prior to accepting the doctrines of grace.

Yes. That is what "Go ye..." means. There is absolutely no scriptural evidence that God uses any other means now in the age of grace. He is not giving direct inspiration. He is not miraculously transporting witnesses.

No. It simply accepts what scripture says without attempting to add something else to it... but my view doesn't require that anything be added to it. Your's does.

You haven't demonstrated by any stretch that the exegesis is faulty. The Bible most certainly tells us why and if it didn't or the exegesis truly was faulty... you'd have a better answer than that.

An answer that simply didn't relate to the question.

I wasn't missing it. I never denied but rather affirmed that faith is a decision/act of will. However it is NOT the act of man's natural will. God changes the will then man chooses.

I am not. OTOH, it is you that deny scriptures that answer the question of why man believes. It is you that demands that God must spread the gospel in some way not given in scripture because your system requires it to be so.