What happens first?

Absolutely what, faith is a work?!?

 

It does no such thing. The gospel is not revealed in nature. However God is. So every man because of general revelation is guilty of not obeying the law of his conscience (Romans 2).

Yes you can. The task of spreading the gospel was given to man. We know for a fact that people lived and died in the Americas before European exploration in ignorance of the gospel.

The context of my question was the gospel or direct revelation.

Not true. The Bible tells us why. Those with a bias against the doctrines of grace simply want to avoid those scriptures because they deny man credit for making a good choice. Man cannot claim any glory according to calvinism... and the Bible.

The honest answer is that scripture tells us but it is inconvenient to anti-calvinists. We were born by the will of God... not of man.

All do not. Some believe. They believe for a reason. There is a cause for their belief and despite your protests to the contrary, scripture tells us that it is not man's goodness and that it is God's goodness.

Evading again? Faith in Christ is a decision/act of will. Either that act of will came from within the man... a good decision... a merit that God rewards with salvation or else it comes from God purely through grace.

*sigh* evasion.

This is a question. Not a straw man. If you have a third or fourth answer, I will gladly consider it as well. The fact remains that salvation is an effect and every effect has a cause. Either God's goodness causes the actions of those who believe or man's goodness... or you have imagined another answer.

 

Here is a typical calvinist work. Set up the strawman and tear it down. With blinders on and ears stopped up with the wax of the teachings of calvin.
I know of not one non calvinist who believes it is all of them or even part of them. They give all the glory and honour to God. All ability and power is from God. Spurgeon here is way off base and either being Agitating or just being ignorant.

 

"Not true. The Bible tells us why. Those with a bias against the doctrines of grace simply want to avoid those scriptures because they deny man credit for making a good choice. Man cannot claim any glory according to calvinism... and the Bible."

Scott this statement and many others made on here show that you really are not interested in honest debate. No where is any, notta, no one claiming that man gets credit for salvation. And you might want to listen and take that puffed up chest down a bit. Non Calvinist are not claiming any glory and you cannot prove that they are. You might disagree with the way they are thinking. But to label them with the above is really just stirring up emotions and pride.

 

I believe the Gospel is revealed in nature, and in any way that God wants it presented. See Revelation 14:6, and Paul's conversion. You may not like the Gospel in the Stars theory, but it is plausible.

See above answer. You believe that omniscient God has put the ENTIRE responsibility of spreading the Gospel on the shoulders of man? Wow. Man is a means of doing this, but to claim that man is the ONLY way the Gospel is shared holds man up pretty high.

The Bible doesn't tell us why, but the faulty exegesis of reformers THINKS the Bible tells us why. Huge difference.

I evaded nothing. You asked a simple question, I gave a simple answer. You are starting to get it, I think. Faith IS a decision/act of the will. Everything else you said is true, since God has set it up that way. Who are you to question God in how He works?

Again, who are you to question how God works? If He does reward faith from within (that He has given ALL men), so what? Is He not allowed to do that?

 

Faith comes before Grace and that settles it.

By Grace are ye saved through Faith.

 

Man, is Piper off on this or what...

(Psalm 65:4)
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it." - JOHN PIPER [/FONT]

 

I am a new poster, and I have a very sincere question, directed to those that believe that regeneration is the first step in our salvation. Simply put, are you equating the conviction of the Holy Spirit with regeneration?

 

Thank you for your reply. Can you please clarify - is the "work of the Holy Spirit" you refer to conviction? I understand conviction to be the work of the Holy Spirit in revealing our sin and need for a Savior. Then, the choice is ours. Is this an accurate view?

 

I will speak for myself, and let the sparks fly. I am not equating conviction with regeneration. Regeneration is a fundamental changing of the sin nature of a lost person. A lost person cannot be brought under conviction until Holy Spirit regenerates them because they cannot discern spiritual matters. Once Holy Spirit regenerates them, changes them, they are brought under conviction of the truth of the gospel concerning Jesus Christ and their own estate as a person lost and doomed to hell. Having been regenerated, they are now capable of making that "choice" for Christ, and they respond to what God has revealed to them in repentance and faith, joy and perseverence. And people will make that choice for Christ every time Holy Spirit so changes their nature, without fail.

Although we speak as if there is an "order" of events here, the truth is that it is a simultaneous event (at least for me it was). The whole salvation "event" is a display of God's Grace (which means His unmerited favor). That is, God chose a person for salvation according to the kind intention of His will, based on nothing that person has done or will do in the future. It is all the "unmerited favor" of God, or "Grace".

peace to youraise:

p.s. DUCK!

 

The work of the Holy Spirit works in perfect unison with Christ, and does not precede Him so that Christ can be heard. Drawing and regeneration are not to be confused.

 

Some choice!! Calvinist keep saying choice and then take it away. They say you can choice good or evil but because of your sinful nature you cannot do good. What a doctrine to mankind to say the Lord loves you but adios.

 

You keep calling everyone "Calvanist" but I have never read anything by Calvin.
I simply read the Bible.
Oh, and you wanted to know if the "C" in my screen name stood for calvin, no my name is not Calvin. No relation as far as I know but my last name does start with a C though.

 

Thank you, webdog - am I correct in understanding that you are equating "drawing" with conviction? I hate to beat a dead horse, but I really want to understand this.

 

No, Satan said you could choose good over evil without God when he convinced Eve of the first lie. Sadly, that lie continues to deceive many.

My "doctrine" is not that the LORD says "adios", but that the LORD displayed His great love, compassion and mercy by saying "hello" to those He has chosen, according to His Freewill, regenerating them so they can respond in repentance and faith, and giving them His Spirit as a down payment of the inheritance they have in Heaven.

peace to youraise:

 

Thank you very much canadyjd. I'm having a big problem understanding this. It doesn't seem to be much of a choice when explained this way. I'm truly not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.

 

This is Scriptural error. God does not give faith to believe. Where is that in the Bible. Give Scriptural evidence. God may give faith to a Christian but not to an unbeliever. You have a wrong definition of faith.
DHK

 

Scripture tells us that the entire world has already chosen to rebel against God's revelation (Rom.1:18+). Every person on the planet has made their choice and it is darkness, not light; it is rebellion, not obedience to God. Every person on the planet deserves hell and God's nature of Love would not be harmed in any way if He put us there.

God, in His mercy, according to His freewill, has chosen for salvation some, but not all. To those He has chosen, He has poured out His Grace as I described earlier.

I thank God he did not leave me in my sins, under the delusion of making "good" choices. God interupted my life, and drew me to Himself. I give Him total credit for my salvation. I would rather be the slave of Christ, irresistably drawn by Holy Spirit to make the "choice" of faith in Jesus, than to remain the master of my own fate which certainly leads to death and hell.

peace to youraise: