What happens first?

subject

sub·ject
1 a : to bring under control or dominion : [SIZE=-1]SUBJUGATE[/SIZE] b : to make (as oneself) amenable to the discipline and control of a superior
2 : to make liable : [SIZE=-1]PREDISPOSE[/SIZE]

Made us subject to sin
Not willingly
Subjected same in Hope ( also made us subject to Hope
In other words a (choice) right from the beginning.

Yes He is waiting for us to choose to see who are the "sons of God".

church time, cya this evening.

 

Sources were listed after each, go back and see (abbreviations from e-sword).
"It", in the correct exegesis of the passage, refers to the entire phrase "by grace...through faith". What, then, is the "it"? Bible 101 tells us it's salvation. You stand in the minority on faith being the gift, even amongst calvinists here.

 

Duly noted...ignored.

 

Do you know as fact that they have not? Romans 1 implies that they have.

I believe they have, but that is my belief and not fact. You cannot state truthfully that they have not.

Romans 1 and John 12 imply "yes".

Ahhh...this is the one thing that a calvinst HAS to know, even though there is no way of knowing for certain this side of Heaven. The honest answer any Christian should give on this question is "I don't know", because we don't. Calvinism THINKS it knows, but it doesn't.

Acknowledging what, all have not heard or all do not believe? I won't ever acknowledge the first, but I am in agreement with the second.

Other than faith in Christ? Nothing.

*sigh* strawman.

 

Webdog.

Webdog, you said:

I really don’t see where we have a disagreement. Did I not say that “It” referred to “Grace” AND “Faith?” And did I not say that both were required for salvation? Of course I did. In another post, I said: “Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm the work of the Spirit to draw men to Christ. Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm that salvation is by the grace of God. Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm that a person must respond to God in repentance and faith.”


Grace and Faith are both indispensable to salvation. The two elements are inextricably linked and I don’t think any Calvinist would say otherwise. Some Hyper-Calvinists, I think, would say man does not need faith—they would be wrong.

However, the argument you are making about “it” referring to “salvation” is only right in the sense that “Grace” and “Faith” are both part and parcel to God’s gift of salvation.

On the other hand, If you are arguing that “It” refers to the perfect passive participle “you have been saved,” your argument is not right. “It,” being a pronoun cannot stand in the place of a participle—since pronouns stand in the place of nouns.

As I Said:

You have not provided good, technical reason why the above exegesis is wrong. It is possible, I think you’d agree, that the exegesis is right and you don’t like my (and others’) conclusion. By the way, that’s fine with me. Many good, strong Christians have come to different conclusions about what this passage means.

What I am writing against is the Hyper-Calvinist idea that Grace without Faith saves and the Arminian idea that Faith is the act that brings Grace. The text supports neither of those presuppositions. What the text does support is that Grace and Faith are two sides of the salvation coin. They are both indispensable to salvation; they are both gifts of God.

There are deeper issues here. If you’d like discuss them in a cordial manner befitting Christians, I’d be happy to.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I don't know why you are confusing the issue. "It" is not referred to grace and faith. "It" is referring to "by grace you have been saved through faith"...the WHOLE sentence, not bits and pieces. What is "by grace you have been saved through faith" in reference to? Salvation, plain and simple. You are trying to say that grace and faith are what is being referred back to. Grace and faith are plural. "It" is singular, referring to salvation "by grace through faith", the process. "It" would have needed to be replaced by "they" with your exegesis. This is about as technical as is needed in reading this relatively simple verse with an open heart and mind. You don't need a theology book.

I stand by my statement that "it" and "that" are in reference to salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

If this were so, christians would not sin or should I say, do sinful things.

 

Webdog:

Webdog:

There is much to cover and I doubt I’ll be able to post again until Tuesday. So, I’ll try to answer as much as I can in this post.

You said:

I’ll try to deal with this in small pieces so that I can deal with several things in detail.

You said: You are trying to say that grace and faith are what is being referred back to. Grace and faith are plural. "It" is singular, referring to salvation "by grace through faith", the process. "It" would have needed to be replaced by "they".

You are simply wrong. You said “Grace” and “Faith” are plural—they are not. Grace is a Singular, Feminine noun in the dative case. It is not plural and cannot be mistaken for plural. Faith is a Singular, Feminine noun in the genitive case. It is not plural and cannot be mistaken as plural. Greek, being a fully-inflected language, is quite specific and these two words are singular, not plural.

“It,” or in Greek touto, is a demonstrative pronoun. It is a Singular, Neuter pronoun in the nominative case.

“It” relates to “Grace” and “Faith” much more plausibly than “You have been saved.”

I really can’t speak as to what would have been written in the text. Rather, I am investigating what has been written in the text.

You said:

I have seen this sentiment in many places and I have seen it expressed by many people. It is an unfortunate sentiment. The problem we have is that the Bible was not written in English. Some Greek words (and Hebrew, for that matter) do not translate well to English. Furthermore, Greek is very specific as to how it relates to itself—something that disappeared from English sometime in the last 250 years.

In any true study of the Bible it is important to investigate the original languages so that technical, exegetical, and syntactical errors do not skew your understanding of the Scriptures.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

And so the war continues!!! Where oh where did the Love of God go!!!

 

Calvinist believe that only those predestined to love will do so. :laugh:

Seriously, it is sad to see so much bitterness on both sides of the debate, but people have strongly held beliefs they feel they need to defend.

Sometimes it is like the Politics Forum in that proving the other side wrong is more important than proving ourselves right.

 

I use the Bible as my source of Scripture information.

 

Romans, chapter 5
"18": Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"19": For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It was took out of context by Calvin, here is a little more information you will find in the Bible that Calvin left out.

 

Oh, but He is doing what God willed him to be able to do and that is to choose.

 

This sounds like it came straight from the reformers 101 text book:laugh:

First, if faith is considered a "work" if not given by God to use, faith given by God to use is still a "work". If hammering a nail is work, hammering the nail is work whether I own a hammer or you give it to me.

Second, you state NOW he is regenerated, which is what I believe (faith in Christ = born again; regenerated), and what I believe the Bible teaches. Don't you believe regeneration happens first before faith in Christ?