What happens first?

[Brother Bob]

subject

sub·ject
1 a : to bring under control or dominion : [SIZE=-1]SUBJUGATE[/SIZE] b : to make (as oneself) amenable to the discipline and control of a superior
2 : to make liable : [SIZE=-1]PREDISPOSE[/SIZE]

Made us subject to sin
Not willingly
Subjected same in Hope ( also made us subject to Hope
In other words a (choice) right from the beginning.

Yes He is waiting for us to choose to see who are the "sons of God".

church time, cya this evening.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,

Please post your sources and enter into a detailed discussion. Really, and I'm not trying to be snotty, I do not have time to read through mountains of jibberish by people I don't know. So, if you'd like to keep discussing this, please be specific and lets talk, you and me, about the matter. Let's not have others talk for us without citing them and let's deal with the finer points. For example: Please explain how "It" refers to "salvation."

Blessings,

The Archangel

Sources were listed after each, go back and see (abbreviations from e-sword).
"It", in the correct exegesis of the passage, refers to the entire phrase "by grace...through faith". What, then, is the "it"? Bible 101 tells us it's salvation. You stand in the minority on faith being the gift, even amongst calvinists here.

 

[webdog]

I'm me. And that is my opinion. Consider it or ignore it.

Duly noted...ignored.

 

[webdog]

Do "all" as in each and every individual hear the gospel?

Do you know as fact that they have not? Romans 1 implies that they have.

Have all individuals heard the gospel since the ascension?

I believe they have, but that is my belief and not fact. You cannot state truthfully that they have not.

You believe that God reveals Himself to all men?

Romans 1 and John 12 imply "yes".

If that is true then why don't all accept Him?

Ahhh...this is the one thing that a calvinst HAS to know, even though there is no way of knowing for certain this side of Heaven. The honest answer any Christian should give on this question is "I don't know", because we don't. Calvinism THINKS it knows, but it doesn't.

Acknowledging that all do not... why do any?

Acknowledging what, all have not heard or all do not believe? I won't ever acknowledge the first, but I am in agreement with the second.

What about them separates them from the damned?

Other than faith in Christ? Nothing.

You still need to answer that question. Are they saved by the merit of their choice or by the grace of God?

*sigh* strawman.

 

[The Archangel]

Webdog.

Webdog, you said:

Sources were listed after each, go back and see (abbreviations from e-sword).
"It", in the correct exegesis of the passage, refers to the entire phrase "by grace...through faith". What, then, is the "it"? Bible 101 tells us it's salvation. You stand in the minority on faith being the gift, even amongst calvinists here.

I really don’t see where we have a disagreement. Did I not say that “It” referred to “Grace” AND “Faith?” And did I not say that both were required for salvation? Of course I did. In another post, I said: “Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm the work of the Spirit to draw men to Christ. Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm that salvation is by the grace of God. Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm that a person must respond to God in repentance and faith.”


Grace and Faith are both indispensable to salvation. The two elements are inextricably linked and I don’t think any Calvinist would say otherwise. Some Hyper-Calvinists, I think, would say man does not need faith—they would be wrong.

However, the argument you are making about “it” referring to “salvation” is only right in the sense that “Grace” and “Faith” are both part and parcel to God’s gift of salvation.

On the other hand, If you are arguing that “It” refers to the perfect passive participle “you have been saved,” your argument is not right. “It,” being a pronoun cannot stand in the place of a participle—since pronouns stand in the place of nouns.

As I Said:

Technical Question: What does “It” refer to? Grace AND Faith.

If memory serves, the word “Grace” is feminine and “Faith” is feminine—they are both feminine nouns. The pronoun “it” in this case is neuter.

If “it” referred to Grace only, it would have to be presented in the feminine form, it isn’t; if “it” referred to Faith only, it would have to be presented in the feminine form, it isn’t.

“It,” being neuter, then, refers to BOTH Grace and Faith. Therefore both Grace and Faith are gifts of God.

You have not provided good, technical reason why the above exegesis is wrong. It is possible, I think you’d agree, that the exegesis is right and you don’t like my (and others’) conclusion. By the way, that’s fine with me. Many good, strong Christians have come to different conclusions about what this passage means.

What I am writing against is the Hyper-Calvinist idea that Grace without Faith saves and the Arminian idea that Faith is the act that brings Grace. The text supports neither of those presuppositions. What the text does support is that Grace and Faith are two sides of the salvation coin. They are both indispensable to salvation; they are both gifts of God.

There are deeper issues here. If you’d like discuss them in a cordial manner befitting Christians, I’d be happy to.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

On the other hand, If you are arguing that “It” refers to the perfect passive participle “you have been saved,” your argument is not right. “It,” being a pronoun cannot stand in the place of a participle—since pronouns stand in the place of nouns.

I don't know why you are confusing the issue. "It" is not referred to grace and faith. "It" is referring to "by grace you have been saved through faith"...the WHOLE sentence, not bits and pieces. What is "by grace you have been saved through faith" in reference to? Salvation, plain and simple. You are trying to say that grace and faith are what is being referred back to. Grace and faith are plural. "It" is singular, referring to salvation "by grace through faith", the process. "It" would have needed to be replaced by "they" with your exegesis. This is about as technical as is needed in reading this relatively simple verse with an open heart and mind. You don't need a theology book.

I stand by my statement that "it" and "that" are in reference to salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[LeBuick]

God always allows man to be saved. But man will not of his own accord deny self and sin so God graciously quickens some spiritually so that they might accept the truth.

If this were so, christians would not sin or should I say, do sinful things.

 

[The Archangel]

Webdog:

Webdog:

There is much to cover and I doubt I’ll be able to post again until Tuesday. So, I’ll try to answer as much as I can in this post.

You said:

I don't know why you are confusing the issue. "It" is not referred to grace and faith. "It" is referring to "by grace you have been saved through faith"...the WHOLE sentence, not bits and pieces. What is "by grace you have been saved through faith" in reference to? Salvation, plain and simple. You are trying to say that grace and faith are what is being referred back to. Grace and faith are plural. "It" is singular, referring to salvation "by grace through faith", the process. "It" would have needed to be replaced by "they". This is about as technical as is needed in reading this relatively simple verse with an open heart and mind. You don't need a theology book.

I stand by my statement that "it" and "that" are in reference to salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

I’ll try to deal with this in small pieces so that I can deal with several things in detail.

You said: You are trying to say that grace and faith are what is being referred back to. Grace and faith are plural. "It" is singular, referring to salvation "by grace through faith", the process. "It" would have needed to be replaced by "they".

You are simply wrong. You said “Grace” and “Faith” are plural—they are not. Grace is a Singular, Feminine noun in the dative case. It is not plural and cannot be mistaken for plural. Faith is a Singular, Feminine noun in the genitive case. It is not plural and cannot be mistaken as plural. Greek, being a fully-inflected language, is quite specific and these two words are singular, not plural.

“It,” or in Greek touto, is a demonstrative pronoun. It is a Singular, Neuter pronoun in the nominative case.

“It” relates to “Grace” and “Faith” much more plausibly than “You have been saved.”

I really can’t speak as to what would have been written in the text. Rather, I am investigating what has been written in the text.

You said:

This is about as technical as is needed in reading this relatively simple verse with an open heart and mind. You don't need a theology book.

I have seen this sentiment in many places and I have seen it expressed by many people. It is an unfortunate sentiment. The problem we have is that the Bible was not written in English. Some Greek words (and Hebrew, for that matter) do not translate well to English. Furthermore, Greek is very specific as to how it relates to itself—something that disappeared from English sometime in the last 250 years.

In any true study of the Bible it is important to investigate the original languages so that technical, exegetical, and syntactical errors do not skew your understanding of the Scriptures.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[2BHizown]

Arminian Grace

Arminian grace! How strange the sound
Salvation hinged on ME
I once was lost then turned around
Was blind then chose to see
What “grace” is it that calls for choice
Out of some good within?
The part that willed to heed God’s voice
Proved stronger than my sin

Through many ardent gospel pleas
I sat with heart of stone
But then some hidden good in me
Propelled me toward my home

When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Because of what we’ve done
We’ve no less days to sing our praise
Than when we first begun

- Dennis Walter Cochran

 

[Brother Bob]

And so the war continues!!! Where oh where did the Love of God go!!!

 

[Terry_Herrington]

And so the war continues!!! Where oh where did the Love of God go!!!

Calvinist believe that only those predestined to love will do so. :laugh:

Seriously, it is sad to see so much bitterness on both sides of the debate, but people have strongly held beliefs they feel they need to defend.

Sometimes it is like the Politics Forum in that proving the other side wrong is more important than proving ourselves right.

 

[2BHizown]

There is no obscurity in the words, "As by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." - John Calvin (Institutes, 2.1.6).[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Brother Bob]

I use the Bible as my source of Scripture information.

 

[2BHizown]

Did you not notice, so did John Calvin?

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans, chapter 5
"18": Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"19": For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It was took out of context by Calvin, here is a little more information you will find in the Bible that Calvin left out.

 

[2BHizown]

As by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:29

Soooooo We know that man so wants to make his own decisions regarding all of life and eternity and we know that he is free to choose. However, he can only choose what is against God's will as he must choose according to his nature and since he is spiritually blind, deaf and insensitive to God's truth he cannot see or understand it to choose what would please God, UNLESS, the Holy Spirit regenerates his heart, opens his eyes and ears to see and hear scripture in its truth. When the Holy Spirit touches a heart a person then and only then can understand and have a real interest in God's word in the faith that he has received from the HS. He is now justified and will progress in sanctification until he goes to be with the Lord and is glorified!

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, but He is doing what God willed him to be able to do and that is to choose.

 

[2BHizown]

yes, he chose after his heart was changed and the gift of faith was given! Now he is regenerated, justified and on his way to being sanctified! Praise God!

 

[webdog]

yes, he chose after his heart was changed and the gift of faith was given! Now he is regenerated, justified and on his way to being sanctified! Praise God!

This sounds like it came straight from the reformers 101 text book:laugh:

First, if faith is considered a "work" if not given by God to use, faith given by God to use is still a "work". If hammering a nail is work, hammering the nail is work whether I own a hammer or you give it to me.

Second, you state NOW he is regenerated, which is what I believe (faith in Christ = born again; regenerated), and what I believe the Bible teaches. Don't you believe regeneration happens first before faith in Christ?

 

[2BHizown]

Absolutely! I think we've all arrived at the same destination! Praise God! God saves sinners!