What happens first?

[Scott J]

Quote:

This is a question. Not a straw man. If you have a third or fourth answer, I will gladly consider it as well. The fact remains that salvation is an effect and every effect has a cause. Either God's goodness causes the actions of those who believe or man's goodness... or you have imagined another answer.

Again, who are you to question how God works?

I am not. I am stating how scripture declares that He works.

If He does reward faith from within (that He has given ALL men), so what?

First, that seems to be an admission that you believe in a system of salvation premised on man's merit. That is pretty much what it has seemed all along but this goes a good way toward affirming it.

Second, if God gave all men faith then all men would be saved. FTR, it isn't just "faith" that saves. It is a particular kind and manner of faith. It is a faith born of genuine purity and goodness. And this is why God must initiate it.

Is He not allowed to do that?

Sure. And if He did so all men would fall short and go to hell. In fact, you have pretty much described the state of the unsaved. God will properly reward the "faith" that comes from the "goodness" within them... they will be condemned.

 

[Scott J]

Faith comes before Grace and that settles it.

Thus saith Bob settles absolutely nothing.

By Grace

The cause.

are ye

the object.

saved

The effect.

through Faith.

The means.

If it were as you contend, the verse would have to read: By faith are ye saved through grace, and that of yourselves, it is no gift, of works so that your good decision might merit favor.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ephesians, chapter 2
"5": Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Absolutely does not say "by faith" are you saved. If you slowly, carefully and Methodology study the Scripture line by line you will see it says "by Grace" are ye saved. Blessings,raying:

Says "by grace" are ye saved you get to grace through faith its the only way. You don't get the grace unless you have faith. Bless raying: :Fish:

 

[Brother Bob]

after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Pomise. (not Holy but holy)
What is the holy Spirit of Promise. its in the same chapter verse :18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Are you saying that there is some other kind of holy Spirit of promise other than God's?

He may of been talking to the saved but he was talking about them before they were saved unless you believe the saved are not sealed when they are saved.
It plainly says it takes "believing" there is no way to get around it. "except ye believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come". amenraise: :Fish:

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

I am saying in our translation of the Bible when they translated from the Greek words they used Capital letters For God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Ghost/Spirit.

For an example 2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

the god of this world is the Devil, by nature thats who man serves, Christ, who is the image of God, We have both examples in this text. God and god.

things can be holy but the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the God Head. it could of said holy Spirit of Adoption in Romans.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Some people focus on through him, but I am saying it was of him before we went through him and then we have peace with the Father.
Romans 3:4 Let God be true but everyman a liar. Pray to the Lord to show you I am just a man. I don't have to win the debates or be right all of the time. I enjoy talking about his written word and if we don't see it the same let us still do it in love. Your brother in Christ...........

 

[Brother Bob]

Jeremy;
That don't answer my question where does the holy Spirit of promise come from and what does it do. Who is able to seal but God? Do you think that in the translation they could have made a mistake in capitalization, because man in no way can make a holy Spirit of promise and if you notice the Spirit is Capitalized?

This is the very next verse in that Scripture.

Ephesians, chapter 4

"30": And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

peace raying:

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

Jeremy;
That don't answer my question where does the holy Spirit of promise come from and what does it do. Who is able to seal but God? Do you think that in the translation they could have made a mistake in capitalization, because man in no way can make a holy Spirit of promise and if you notice the Spirit is Capitalized?

This is the very next verse in that Scripture.

Ephesians, chapter 4

"30": And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

peace raying:

Yep thats a good one Brother Bob 4:30, This I believe its all of God. the work of the Holy Ghost. When you are sealed your heaven bought and heaven bound. but going to verse :14 Which is the earnest (down payment. a first fruit of ) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, Thats what I was looking at being sealed with the promise. having that down payment of eternal life. just like the spirit of adoption we cry abba Father. This is the work of the Holy Ghost. If you Cry out to God you don't get it you have it. The promise is to the believer, and the believer believes by the working of his mighty power. God bless you brother Bob.

 

[Brother Bob]

You take care Jeremy;
If you are the elect then why would you need to be sealed.:wavey:

I believe you have it or not. A down payment?

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

You take care Jeremy;
If you are the elect then why would you need to be sealed.:wavey:

I believe you have it or not. A down payment?

I do not hold to eternal vital union, God purposed to save the Elect,
I Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, So God does this through separating one for holy use by imputing his Holiness and this is vital.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

:14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elects's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Paul did it for elect not to make them the elect.

Also being saved is not always in the eternal sense, some times its here in time for those that are in Christ calling them unto those things in Christ.
I Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this though shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. I believe this is saved in time from snare of satan and things that are false.
Like when it say if we neglect such a great salvation I believe is talking to the elect that has been made alive in time by the Holy Ghost. How can one neglect something that they don't have.

I admit scriptures are hard to divide and I get stumped all the time. wouldn't you brother Bob admit the same thing. Don't some scriptures make you consider things that you always go against on the BB. In love brother Jeremy

 

[Brother Bob]

Jeremy;
That is the only reason I stay on here and for no other.
Yes, Scriptures are hard at time to rightly divide and the ones you just gave I see some of them differently but that is me. peace