Brother Bob
New Member
Obedience is better than sacrifice says it all Bob.
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what happens if you die while you're sinning? Pt. 2
- Thread starter gekko
- Start date
Bob Ryan,
There is a sense in which the OT saved ones were saved by faith. In the sense that they had faith that the blood sacrifices would be sufficient.
But Gods testimony is that works and the keeping of the Law where obviously very much at the forefront during those times.
And of course the Law is also very much in the forefront during our times. It is what we are judged against, if we are not in Christ. Gods standard will be perfection, and we will be found guilty...and condemned.
But God has stepped in and rescued us.
Christ came and kept the Law perfectly and made it possible for us to do what is impossible for us to do in and of ourselves...to also be blameless in Gods sight.
Because Christs rightiousness is imputed, or credited, to us...we are now free. Not free to sin up a storm, but free to grow in grace with the knowledge that the victory is already won.
We are are secured for heaven because Christ is perfect and will never sin. When He died our sins were placed on Christ, fulfilling Gods justice.
Gods justice says that we...you and I...MUST die for our rebellion.
He then rose from the dead and offers His resurrection life to the "whosoeverwills".
By and through Faith alone.
But it will ...wonderfully...produce fruit.
Why did God decide to do it this way? Probably because it glorifies Christ so fully. We can take zero credit...so Christ gets it all.
Praise His name! \o/
I'm sure someone else can respond much more fully then I can. I just got to rambling a bit!
God bless,
Mike
These things are wonderful to dwell upon, arent they?
God is God and He can do as He pleases. Our obligation is to learn about His ways and say "Yes Lord".
There is a sense in which the OT saved ones were saved by faith. In the sense that they had faith that the blood sacrifices would be sufficient.
But Gods testimony is that works and the keeping of the Law where obviously very much at the forefront during those times.
And of course the Law is also very much in the forefront during our times. It is what we are judged against, if we are not in Christ. Gods standard will be perfection, and we will be found guilty...and condemned.
But God has stepped in and rescued us.
Christ came and kept the Law perfectly and made it possible for us to do what is impossible for us to do in and of ourselves...to also be blameless in Gods sight.
Because Christs rightiousness is imputed, or credited, to us...we are now free. Not free to sin up a storm, but free to grow in grace with the knowledge that the victory is already won.
We are are secured for heaven because Christ is perfect and will never sin. When He died our sins were placed on Christ, fulfilling Gods justice.
Gods justice says that we...you and I...MUST die for our rebellion.
Christ stepped up and in effect, said "I'll take that for Bob and Mike...and everyone else." And God in effect said...I'll accept that.
He then rose from the dead and offers His resurrection life to the "whosoeverwills".
By and through Faith alone.
But it will ...wonderfully...produce fruit.
Of course you know all of this, but I sort of got on a roll there in responding.
Why did God decide to do it this way? Probably because it glorifies Christ so fully. We can take zero credit...so Christ gets it all.
Praise His name! \o/
I'm sure someone else can respond much more fully then I can. I just got to rambling a bit!
God bless,
Mike
These things are wonderful to dwell upon, arent they?
Mike
I get all of that what you just said but what bothers me is you dont seem to realize that the fruits of walking in the spirit are the same as walking in the 10 commandment law.
Galatians 5:
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
did you read that> it isnt any different than the law (please dont get into that are you keeping it perfectly thing)
Galatians 5
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
dont you see Mike that the fruit of the spirit is LOVE???
lOVE IS THE LAW, and therefor if you walk in Love there is no low against that??? so you arent under the condemnation of the law anymore once you begin walking in the spirit and no longer in the flesh? the flesh is AGAINST the law... (adulteries, fornication etc)
This is so easy to understand and I dont see why you dont seem to get it it just seems you are dead set against the law so you dont see it
you keep saying walk in the spirit and we keep saying yes walk in the spirit and stop breaking the law... and so you seem to view us as being under some old obsolete law...
I personally am not seeking to be JUSTIFIED by the law... but I know if I walk in the spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh... so what am I going to fulfill>>>??
...the fruits of the spirit, one being Love... love God and love thy neighbor??? of course!
then dont turn around and say it doesnt matter as far as our salvation goes...because it does matter,,, the bible says if we dont walk in the spirit "we are NONE OF HIS"
Rom:8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Mike a kid could understand this!!
I get all of that what you just said but what bothers me is you dont seem to realize that the fruits of walking in the spirit are the same as walking in the 10 commandment law.
Galatians 5:
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
did you read that> it isnt any different than the law (please dont get into that are you keeping it perfectly thing)
Galatians 5
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
dont you see Mike that the fruit of the spirit is LOVE???
lOVE IS THE LAW, and therefor if you walk in Love there is no low against that??? so you arent under the condemnation of the law anymore once you begin walking in the spirit and no longer in the flesh? the flesh is AGAINST the law... (adulteries, fornication etc)
This is so easy to understand and I dont see why you dont seem to get it it just seems you are dead set against the law so you dont see it
you keep saying walk in the spirit and we keep saying yes walk in the spirit and stop breaking the law... and so you seem to view us as being under some old obsolete law...
I personally am not seeking to be JUSTIFIED by the law... but I know if I walk in the spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh... so what am I going to fulfill>>>??
...the fruits of the spirit, one being Love... love God and love thy neighbor??? of course!
then dont turn around and say it doesnt matter as far as our salvation goes...because it does matter,,, the bible says if we dont walk in the spirit "we are NONE OF HIS"
Rom:8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Mike a kid could understand this!!
Claudia,
We have gone over that so many times. Nobody is denying that as we live "in the Spirit" the same sorts of attitude and behavior changes will be occuring.
The christian will be putting off lying, stealing, sexual sin, etc. Putting in love, peace, sexual purity, etc. Nobody is denying that. I have never denied that. I've said that all along, over and over and over again.
Its a question of whether God wants His people living that way under the legalistic adherence to, and condemnation of, the Law.
Or, in the goodness of the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
God desires that we grow in grace from the perspective of complete freedom and deliverance from the Law, through the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
The reason is because one of the purposes of the Law is to stir up sinfull desires. That is what it is supposed to do, so that the person will see their need for mercy...
We walk in the "newness of the Spirit", and not the "oldness of the letter". becaise the "Letter kills" but the "Spirit gives life"
A legalist simply does not trust the Holy Spirit to do what He is supposed to do. They must resurrect that Law, which has fullfilled its primary purpose if the person has come to Christ, to keep people in bondage to it.
Its a very tragic thing.
God bless,
Mike
We have gone over that so many times. Nobody is denying that as we live "in the Spirit" the same sorts of attitude and behavior changes will be occuring.
The christian will be putting off lying, stealing, sexual sin, etc. Putting in love, peace, sexual purity, etc. Nobody is denying that. I have never denied that. I've said that all along, over and over and over again.
Its a question of whether God wants His people living that way under the legalistic adherence to, and condemnation of, the Law.
Or, in the goodness of the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
God desires that we grow in grace from the perspective of complete freedom and deliverance from the Law, through the renewing of the Holy Spirit.
The reason is because one of the purposes of the Law is to stir up sinfull desires. That is what it is supposed to do, so that the person will see their need for mercy...
Once the law has condemned us and pointed us to Jesus for new life, we are freed from that which codemned us. It has fullfilled its primary purpose.
We walk in the "newness of the Spirit", and not the "oldness of the letter". becaise the "Letter kills" but the "Spirit gives life"
A legalist simply does not trust the Holy Spirit to do what He is supposed to do. They must resurrect that Law, which has fullfilled its primary purpose if the person has come to Christ, to keep people in bondage to it.
Its a very tragic thing.
God bless,
Mike
Brother Bob
New Member
We don't care what you call it as long as you keep them.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rom 7 - the LAW defines sin.
Heb 8 the Law is written on the heart.
2 Cor 3 the Law is written on "tablets of the human heart".
Romans 2 the "Doers of the Law are Justified".
-----
But when the sinner comes to Christ for justification he can NOT come to Christ as a "doer of the law". RATHER he is just "a transgressor of the LAW" as we see in Romans 3 and Galatians 3.
This is true in BOTH the OT and the NT.
No change!!
But once he enters into the New Birth (OT or NT) - he is SET FREE from "slavery to sin" Romans 6.
This is seen in the saints of the OT in Heb 11!
So this SAME Gospel promise is there OT and NT.
The same.
No change!
Forgiveness and justification "past" were received by the sinner "without any doing of the Law" in both OT and NT!
But then once a Christian - once a "born-again saint" - that person shows the pre-cross Matt 7 "fruit" of the new creation -- both OT and NT
No Change.
ONE Gospel in ALL ages.
That fruit is so reliably present that as Christ said in Matt 7 "They shall be KNOWN by their fruit" for they "HEAR AND DO" they do not simply "hear only".
In Christ,
Bob
Heb 8 the Law is written on the heart.
2 Cor 3 the Law is written on "tablets of the human heart".
Romans 2 the "Doers of the Law are Justified".
-----
But when the sinner comes to Christ for justification he can NOT come to Christ as a "doer of the law". RATHER he is just "a transgressor of the LAW" as we see in Romans 3 and Galatians 3.
This is true in BOTH the OT and the NT.
No change!!
But once he enters into the New Birth (OT or NT) - he is SET FREE from "slavery to sin" Romans 6.
This is seen in the saints of the OT in Heb 11!
So this SAME Gospel promise is there OT and NT.
The same.
No change!
Forgiveness and justification "past" were received by the sinner "without any doing of the Law" in both OT and NT!
But then once a Christian - once a "born-again saint" - that person shows the pre-cross Matt 7 "fruit" of the new creation -- both OT and NT
No Change.
ONE Gospel in ALL ages.
That fruit is so reliably present that as Christ said in Matt 7 "They shall be KNOWN by their fruit" for they "HEAR AND DO" they do not simply "hear only".
In Christ,
Bob