What happens if you die while you're sinning?

[Claudia_T]

Mike,


if what you say is true then that means you want to wipe out Matthew 18 where it says if someone trespasses against you then take someone with you and if he doesnt listen, etc and so on.... let him be to you as a heathen...


who could you ever do that to if we all have inordinant thoughts?

You are saying to disregard any and all bible passages regarding church discipline "since we are all sinners" right?

 

[Claudia_T]

oh boy, Mike.... I honestly didnt think anyone could get their way around that but you managed to LOL! :0)


Underlying problem: Taking things to extremes, viewing GOD HIMSELF as a legalist and bringing everyone right up to the very tip top of the law and then saying ok we cant possibly do that so lets throw it out!

If you would just realize God wants your heart... your loyalty. He wants you to keep His Law yes, but He isnt sitting there with a big club just waiting for you to violate a hair of the law... so He can whop you over the head and condemn you.


NOT that I am calling you a Pharisee ... but you know thats what THEY DID.. they would strain at gnats... the difference is that they all would then actually try to keep this exacting version of the law, but you wind it up to the limit then say you cant do it and then throw the entire law out the window.

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

Gotta go to work now. I'll respond in the wee hours after I get back from work.

(I work night shift)

God bless,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

ok Mike,

Have a good night!

Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

JJ; I John was written to believers not unbelievers. And if a believer is walking by the flesh and not by the Spirit, which means he isn't keeping the commandments he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Notice it doesn't say he is an unsaved person and The Truth is not in him. Being a liar and being an unsaved person is two totally different things. Paul even reprimands the Corinthians for being liars.

BB; How can you honestly say what you just did and knowing the following Scriptures exist. Not BBob opinion as is a cop out.

Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Revelation, chapter 21
"27": And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Please don't just gloss over the above Scriptures.


JJ; Ephesians, chapter 2
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

BB; That is how you get saved, what does it have to do with what we are talking about? Why don't you just quote Gen 1:1 or something?

DHK; Have you never lied since you have been saved? If you deny it you have just lied again.
"Let God be true but every man a liar" (Rom.3:4)

BB; In the first place do not accuse me of being a liar. The Scripture you quoted is simply saying that if you say something different than what God says then you are lying not that you are a liar. You do err in understanding.

You are the one being hypocritical. You say a lie will keep you out of Heaven and above you say a saved person can lie, which is it? You speak with a forked tongue.

HoG; The Bible clearly states that our spiritual salvation can never be lost, nor can it be forfeited, but we are held to a very high accountability.

BB; If we are held to a very high accountability then we can not do the things of the world. If you are truly saved you will not do the things of the world. So the Scripture you quoted tell us that the Christians do not to those things. If you are saying they can then you are wrong.

What gives you a right to rip any of the Scriptures out. There is a Scripture just for that.

Revelation, chapter 22
"19": And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


D28; This, and other passages, are talking about extreme cases, Bob.
Sex with your own mother.(the man at Corinth)

BB; In the first place I doubt it was his mother even though it could of been, but I think it was his father's wife after mother had died, but whatever it was talking about fornication and if you shoot your mother or someone else the penalty is the same.

D28;By the way, do you ever have a lustful thought? Or inordinate anger?

BB; As I explained earlier, I look and see a woman is pretty but do I let it turn into lust, not on your life. The second one of anger, The Lord said to not let the sun go down on your wrath. Get anger but sin not so looks like I can get angry without sinning.

D28; Why is your church not casting you out?

BB; Now you are being arrogant!! That usually happens when people are fumbling around for the truth.

D28; You guys are missing that. Part of walking in the Spirit means undertanding our complete security as born again people, and that we are free from the Law, and now are to walk "in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter"

You guys are saying we shouldnt commit sin because THE LAW COMMANDS YOU NOT TO DO IT, and YOU WILL BURN IN HELL IF YOU DO!

BB; No, you are missing the Scriptures. You are saying because you are saved you can revert to committing sin and we are saying because you are saved you follow after the Spirit and not the sinful flesh as all Christians do.

Matthew, chapter 5
"19": Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

No wonder the church is having such a tribual time with such teachers among them and such beliefs. I tell you God said He would destroy such a one.


Do you think God is just making conversation in the Scripture below?

1 Corinthians, chapter 3

16": Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (How can such a one committ such an act?)

"17": If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

"18": Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

2 Corinthians, chapter 6
"14": Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Ephesians, chapter 5

"11": And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

I wonder if someone says it is ok to do such things then come to the church and say "forgive me" is looking for a way to commit such things.

1 Corinthians, chapter 5


"1": It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

11": But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

"12": For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

"13": But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


We become Christians and tell satan to get behind us not become Christians and invite satan along with us. If someone is committing such acts or teaching others it is ok to do so, I doubt his Salvation.

 

[J. Jump]

Brother Bob you are a classic cherry picker. Pick a verse here and pick a verse there. We all know that one can prove any point one wants to when cherry picking verses.

But the plain teaching of the Bible is that Christians are saved by grace through faith and that is not of works. That is a one time event. We don't have anythig to do with getting it other than receiving what has been done on our behalf. Once we have it we don't have to do anything to keep it. If we do then it is not a gift.

That means if I murder, commit adultery or whatever Brother Bob wants to plug in there after I am saved and it causes me to void my eternal salvation then that means keeping my eternal salvation is based on my works. And sorry Brother Bob that is clearly in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches.

And Scripture plainly teaches that once a person is saved they do not lose their sin nature. And because of the fact that light and darkness live side-by-side one must choose to take up his cross daily. One must choose to walk by the Spirit. One must choose to crucify the flesh.

Unfortunately there are those that choose not to do the right thing. But it has absolutely NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

JJ; You know I doubt that you really believe Christians do those things. You just want to get in the point of no works but I think the Calvinist position is no works before Salvation but after Salvation I think even the Calvinists believe in works. If you really do believe Christians do those things then you don't esteem Christians very high at all. All those sins are of the world and He said I have chosen you out of the world. I think it is sad to advocate such things in the church. I believe on OSAS but I believe being saved is to not be under bondage of those things for we are set free by the blood of Christ and that means we don't do them anymore.
The world and even satan would say such a person is no better than they are for I have heard them say it. (not satan of course)
If the world says "I don't want to be a part of them for they are no better than I am and they do things that even I won't do, then something bad is wrong." We are the light of the world, not darkness. I do not believe what you are advocating, I believe God's church is a beautiful woman and she certainly does not commit adultery. I believe she is much higher than such things and I love her. I do not love an adultereous.

It says to offer your body a living sacrifice, Holy and acceptable before God which is your reasonable service. You keep saying your works have nothing to do with your Salvation but your works show whether you have Salvation or not and if you are an Adultereous, murder, liar you are of the world and have never been saved.

You need to show by the Scriptures that the church is much more beautiful and clean and righteous people instead of trying to prove she can do anything. You think Heaven is going to be filled with adulterys, murders, liars. That is not Scripture and those are the deeds of the Nicholadians which thing the Lord said He hated.

[ May 15, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Nooooooooooooooooooooo

What you are really saying then is that a Christian can KEEP walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit and not be under condemnation. But thats not what the Bible says.

That is precisely what the Bible says:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

 

[J. Jump]

I believe God's church is a beautiful woman and she certainly does not commit adultery. I believe she is much higher than such things and I love her. I do not love an adultereous.

Brother Bob once again it doesn't matter what you believe, what I believe or what Joe Blow believes. It only matters what the Bible says and that we form our lives to the Bible and not the other way around.

With that being said the Bible teaches that you have an incorrect view of the Church.

Ephesians Chapter 5 tells us in verse 26 so R325 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed R326 her by the washing R327 of water with the R328 word,

The "might" is just that. This may or may not happen. The church may be sanctified or it may not.

Then in Ephesians 5:27 we have two more subjunctive verbs, which means it may or may not happen when it is said That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The rest of Scripture shows us that the entire church is not going to be spotless and without blemish. If that was the case the entire church would be the bride of Christ. And the Bible clearly teaches that the entire church will not be the bride. It will only be part of the body of Christ, or only a portion of Christians that will make up the bride and be found spotless and blameless.

Those found unworthy will receive discipline and those found worthy will rule and reign with Christ. But eternal salvation is secure for both the worthy and unworthy Christian.

 

[Brother Bob]

DHK; That is not what the Bible says. Jeepers


2 Peter, chapter 2
10": But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

"11": Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

"12": But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Romans, chapter 8
"1": There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans, chapter 8
"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(mortify=bring under subjection)

You advocate a terrible doctrine.

 

[J. Jump]

You keep saying your works have nothing to do with your Salvation but your works show whether you have Salvation or not

Brother Bob that's not what I say, that's what the Bible says.

Please show me one Scripture that says I have to prove my salvation by my works.

By the way I think you have totally missed the mark on the Nicholaitans, but that's for another thread

 

[Brother Bob]

JJ; Hogwash, and I have quoted you Scripture after Scripture and you turn a blind eye. You sound like you believe in 2 churches the good and the bad. You don't speak for God's church but God does and He said He would destroy such a person and the soul is not going to one place and the body another.
I tell you of a truth, the rich man advocated a better doctrine than you and some of the others do.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Nooooooooooooooooooooo

What you are really saying then is that a Christian can KEEP walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit and not be under condemnation. But thats not what the Bible says.

And of course Romans 8 is the perfect illustration of Claudia's point as it states that those WHO DO NOT WALK in the Spirit and who are NOT "put to death the deeds of the flesh" - are NOT the children of God!

Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Law FULFILLED in the case of those who DO NOT walk according to the Flesh! As for those who DO walk in the flesh and refuse the Spirit of God …

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But IF the Spirit of God dwells in you – the “we are under obligation NOT to the flesh but to the Spirit”

“IF you are living according to the Flesh you WILL die”

Rom 8

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "" Abba! Father!''
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him

Ok so -- easy enough to see where that point is sustained IN scripture!

But then we read ...

Originally posted by DHK:

(a Christian can KEEP walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit and not be under condemnation)

That is precisely what the Bible says:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, ]

Someone quit reading chapter 8 wayyyy too soon!

Snipping out just the first verse and ignoring the rest results in a view as stated above a view explicitly oontradicting the first 16 verses.

Better to let the Bible speak!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

JJ; Please show me one Scripture that says I have to prove my salvation by my works.


BB; Titus, chapter 2
"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Just one, there are many)

 

[J. Jump]

No Brother Bob I do not believe in two churches. There is only one church, but there are faithful believers and there are unfaithful believers.

You have shown no Scripture that says I have to prove my salvation by my works. So I'm still waiting for one.

I just showed you two Scriptures that says the church is not guaranteed to be found blameless and/or spotless, so it doesn't have anything to do with what I say.

Once again I have addressed two of your posts with it doesn't matter what you say, or what I say or what Joe Blow says. It only matters what the Scriptures say.

You don't speak for God's church but God does

So that is an absolute correct statement. But God says the church has faithful believers and it has some unfaithful believers unfortunately. To believe or to teach otherwise is to teach in direct opposition to Scripture.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
DHK; That is not what the Bible says. Jeepers


2 Peter, chapter 2
10": But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

"11": Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

"12": But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Romans, chapter 8
"1": There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans, chapter 8
"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(mortify=bring under subjection)

You advocate a terrible doctrine.

I quoted to you what the Bible says. Is God so terrible that He teaches terrible doctrine?

Salvation is a free gift. There are no conditions attached.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is God so terrible as to freely offer those who believe on him eternal life. The definition of eternal is indeed eternal--forever and ever, that which cannot be lost. If it could be lost it would defy the very definiition of eternal and only be temporal. That in itself would make God a terrible God, for you (man) would be calling God a liar. Is God a liar, or does eternal mean eternal. The gift of God is eternal life with no conditions attached. Our God is not a terrible God; but a God of love.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ--none, nada, zilch,

Paul goes on to say:
Romans 8:8-9 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--Now it becomes clear that the flesh (the carnal man) is the unsaved man. Those that are in the flesh (the unsaved man) cannot please God no matter what kind of works they bring before God. All of our righteousnesses are but filthy rags (Isa.64:6).
But he says to the Roman believers, "You are not in the flesh, but are in the Spirit." The Spirit of God dwells in the believer. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ, to them in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of God he is none of His. If you don't have God's Spirit you don't belong to God; you are unsaved and condemned for an eternity in Hell. See the contrast throughout this chapter. It is the saved and the unsaved. There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none. As far as the east is from the west so far as he removed our transgressions. He has cast them behind his back. He remembers them no more. They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are all put under the blood of Jesus. My sns are all forgiven: past, present and future. They have all been put under the blood of Christ. I suffer no condmenation as far as my salvation is concerned. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if I should die this day I would go straight to heaven. I will never suffer any kind of purgatorial punisment during the Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

 

[J. Jump]

BB; Titus, chapter 2
"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Just one, there are many)

Ah the cherry picking continues. Brother Bob if you would take this verse in context you would see that it doesn't even have anything to do with eternal salvation by grace through faith apart from works lest any man should boast.

But just for kicks and giggles let's say it did. You have provided a Scripture that has two subjunctive verbs in it, which means it may or may not happen. You don't even present an absolute you present a maybe.

So if there are many let's see another one, because you haven't made a case for anything with that one.

 

[James_Newman]

Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Revelation, chapter 21
"27": And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Please don't just gloss over the above Scriptures.

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This is almost the bible in a nutshell. Salvation is free to all who will believe. Those who overcome will inherit all things. Those who do not will be chastened, punished, whatever. If you want to know what I think 'have their part in the lake of fire means' I'll be happy to explain.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen James_Newman;
Amen Bob;

DHK; If you were right all God would do when He comes back is scoop up the world and go home. You are advocating get yourself saved and then go out and kill who you want, lie all you want, commit adultery with everyone you can. That is heresy if I ever heard it in my life.


Romans, chapter 2
21: Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22: thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23: Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24: For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


Romans, chapter 6

1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You like Romans please read this chapter for it is Paul talking to the Jews who were at one time committing such acts as you advocate but who had ceased from it if they were saved. I am sure there were some among them as even today that were not saved but Paul speaks to those who are saved. You really need to read this chapter and realize that when Paul speaks of such things he is talking that they at one time did those things before Salvation. You do err greatly and if you are teaching other to do so are in grave danger.

 

[JFox1]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
JFox1 the answer to your question lies at the very beginning...suppose a Christian. Well if the man was a Christian then he will spend eternity with God despite his actions.

If killing one person or killing 100 folks denied him eternal salvation then it's not by the blood of Christ He was saved, but by his own works. And Ephesians 2 tells us that salvation by grace through faith has nothing to do with us outside of receiving the gift. Nothing.

It could also be argued that he wasn't really a Christian to begin with. Going by your logic, I could commmit genocide and other sins and still go to Heaven. The are people who have the attitude "Hallelujah! I've been saved! I can lie, steal, beat my wife, etc., etc. because I've been saved!" There's something wrong with that picture. I say that if they die unrepetent, they will still go to hell.