What happens to babies when they die?

[Reformed1689]

Lol...Hello r1689

You know by now I can be somewhat annoying in my posting.
You correctly say this one silver bullet verse mentioning infants who die in infancy is not found...I agree.There would not be discussion if such a verse was sitting there.
The question is answered by examining the Covenant of Redemption or you run the risk of excluding all such little ones.
I will expand this later on...still have 350 miles to go

I am not a full subscriber to Covenant Theology. There are a lot of problems with CT.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not a full subscriber to Covenant Theology. There are a lot of problems with CT.

I thought you believed the 1689?as per your name.

 

[Reformed1689]

I thought you believed the 1689?

I hold to the 1689 with prejudice in some statements. But even the 1689 does not go full-blown into Covenant Theology as the Westminster does.

 

[Iconoclast]

I hold to the 1689 with prejudice in some statements. But even the 1689 does not go full-blown into Covenant Theology as the Westminster does.

That is why we are not Presbyterian
I will be online in about 20 minutes.

 

[Iconoclast]

\AustinC,

We are discussing two different things.

I think we can explore this a bit.I think one issue is on the table.

You are simply talking about election, which atpollard, Reformed, and I believe.

I know you mean believe this that is why it needs some examination.

[QUOTE]All God's elect are saved. Honestly, that's a no-brainer and it is the only point you are making.[/QUOTE]

lol....that is the only point that needs to be made to answer the op,.
The confessional statement is biblically accurate;


3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )


6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

The other issue, which is the actual point of this thread, is...are any unborn, infants or mentally impaired person's elect? Are only some elect, none elect or are all elect?

If you think through the two above statements, they eliminate any speculation;Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases;
It does not address who ,how many, but describes the truth as elect infants.
You asked this;

Are only some elect, none elect or are all elect?

1] Are only some elect,.....if it is "only some", I believe our perfect Lord would have perfect reason for that.

2]none elect ...again if that were so God would have a person reaason

3]or are all elect...same answer. Any of these questions fall under the confessional statement.

I have answered the second question with the honest statement that God doesn't tell us who the elect are and since we cannot discern any faith in that group of person's, we cannot even guess. Instead, we fall at the mercy of God and declare that whatever God chooses is good.

Any who are saved are saved by God's mercy.
All sinned, All died in Adam. Any infant, handicapped need the mercy of God.
Because we are speaking of this group of persons does not in any way set aside any of the 5 points whatsoever.
Particular redemption, the perfect sacrifice are all necessary to save anyone. Jesus died a Covenant death for All given to Him by the Father.

I hope this clarifies things for you and you are able to see that you have missed the point of this conversation and instead honed in on a truth that none of us are debating.

I do not believe I have missed it at all. I just do not divide truth by age.

 

[AustinC]

\AustinC,



I think we can explore this a bit.I think one issue is on the table.



I know you mean believe this that is why it needs some examination.

[QUOTE]All God's elect are saved. Honestly, that's a no-brainer and it is the only point you are making.

lol....that is the only point that needs to be made to answer the op,.
The confessional statement is biblically accurate;


3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )


6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )






If you think through the two above statements, they eliminate any speculation;Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases;
It does not address who ,how many, but describes the truth as elect infants.
You asked this;



1] Are only some elect,.....if it is "only some", I believe our perfect Lord would have perfect reason for that.

2]none elect ...again if that were so God would have a person reaason

3]or are all elect...same answer. Any of these questions fall under the confessional statement.



Any who are saved are saved by God's mercy.
All sinned, All died in Adam. Any infant, handicapped need the mercy of God.
Because we are speaking of this group of persons does not in any way set aside any of the 5 points whatsoever.
Particular redemption, the perfect sacrifice are all necessary to save anyone. Jesus died a Covenant death for All given to Him by the Father.



I do not believe I have missed it at all. I just do not divide truth by age.[/QUOTE]Again, you miss the point. It seems I am unable to break through so I will stop trying. Suffice it to know that our acceptance of God's election in all humanity is similar.

 

[atpollard]

I just do not divide truth by age.

 

[37818]

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
John 3:4, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[percho]

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
John 3:4, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all -- himself -- first,
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

 

[AustinC]

Matthew 18:3, ". . . Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
John 3:4, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all -- himself -- first,
Rom 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

All inspired sentences from God. How do they answer the OP?

 

[Dave G]

Austin....do you believe infants who are elected will not be saved?
That statement is flawless if you understand it biblically.

Tony,
Do you believe that infants who are elect will not actually come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 )?

That God, who is long-suffering to us-ward and not willing that any of His beloved children perish, should allow one of them to not come to repentance and the knowledge of their salvation?

 

[atpollard]

Tony,
Do you believe that infants who are elect will not actually come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 )?

That God, who is long-suffering to us-ward and not willing that any of His beloved children perish, should allow one of them to not come to repentance and the knowledge of their salvation?

Therein lies the reason that I find the question of infant salvation above my pay grade and just trust that whatever God decides will be the RIGHT decision. I hope to meet our son that never made it full term ... but that call belongs to God and I trust Him to make the right decision more than I trust me to make the right decision.

 

[Alan Gross]

Part 2 of the OP in Are Human Beings Born Sinners?

Did The Garden of Eden remain, after Adam's sin, and all individual souls are on the same Probation, in which time they may partake of The Tree of Good and Evil, or The Tree of Life?

"So he drove out the man, and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Genesis 3:24.

Were/are the Cherubims just there, with a flaming sword, for Adam and Eve?

Is this all Jesus Did? Was just re-create The Garden of Eden?

Jesus Came to Earth, Was Given a Body, Lived Perfectly, and Died, was Buried, and Rose Again to set up The Garden of Eden?

People are innocent little sinless babes from the womb and, simply, "make a choice"( in what/ for what?), "believe" ( in what/ for what?), "have faith ( in what/ for what?)".

The Teaching of The Bible is that all souls PICK Eternal Salvation or Damnation in Hell like they PICK TOMATOES?

And The Tree of Life is automatically infused into all babies who die? even if no adults choose The Tree of Life, or not.

Hint: Jesus did not Die everyone's sins, no matter what.

The ANSWER IS, " YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."

Jesus WOULD HAVE TO CONVICT THE UNBELIEVING BABY'S SOUL AND GRANT THE AM AN UNDERSTANDING OF REPENTANCE AND FAITH.

He could and did with John the Baptist.

He Rejoiced in Elizabeth's womb at the knowledge of Jesus' Conception, in Mary.

The SPIRIT OF GOD WAS IN JOHN THE BAPTIST'S SAVED SOUL. IN ELIZEBATH'S WOMB.

 

[Alan Gross]

Therein lies the reason that I find the question of infant salvation above my pay grade and just trust that whatever God decides will be the RIGHT decision. I hope to meet our son that never made it full term ... but that call belongs to God and I trust Him to make the right decision more than I trust me to make the right decision.

Worshipping the God Who is Sovereign over all these issues and unknowns that remain and Bowing to that call belongs to God and trusting Him to make the right decision is CHRISTIANITY.

BIG TEST OF LOVE.

PASSED.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tony,
Do you believe that infants who are elect will not actually come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 )?

That God, who is long-suffering to us-ward and not willing that any of His beloved children perish, should allow one of them to not come to repentance and the knowledge of their salvation?

As posted..God has mercy on who He has mercy on, and has ordained whatever means that takes.
A severely retarded person who cannot process as a healthy person can still be the object of Gods saving grace
Romans 8:29-39...no one can lay any charge to any of the elect.
Repentance is granted by God, not inherent in any person.

 

[AustinC]

Did The Garden of Eden remain, after Adam's sin, and all individual souls are on the same Probation, in which time they may partake of The Tree of Good and Evil, or The Tree of Life?

"So he drove out the man, and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Genesis 3:24.

Were/are the Cherubims just there, with a flaming sword, for Adam and Eve?

Is this all Jesus Did? Was just re-create The Garden of Eden?

Jesus Came to Earth, Was Given a Body, Lived Perfectly, and Died, was Buried, and Rose Again to set up The Garden of Eden?

People are innocent little sinless babes from the womb and, simply, "make a choice"( in what/ for what?), "believe" ( in what/ for what?), "have faith ( in what/ for what?)".

The Teaching of The Bible is that all souls PICK Eternal Salvation or Damnation in Hell like they PICK TOMATOES?

And The Tree of Life is automatically infused into all babies who die? even if no adults choose The Tree of Life, or not.

Hint: Jesus did not Die everyone's sins, no matter what.

The ANSWER IS, " YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN."

Jesus WOULD HAVE TO CONVICT THE UNBELIEVING BABY'S SOUL AND GRANT THE AM AN UNDERSTANDING OF REPENTANCE AND FAITH.

He could and did with John the Baptist.

He Rejoiced in Elizabeth's womb at the knowledge of Jesus' Conception, in Mary.

The SPIRIT OF GOD WAS IN JOHN THE BAPTIST'S SAVED SOUL. IN ELIZEBATH'S WOMB.

Alan, you are reading into the story of Elizabeth and Mary something that is not expressed in the text.
Luke 1:39-45

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”

Notice that Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit. There is no mention that John was filled with the Holy Spirit. It may be that he was, but the text does not actually say he was.

 

[Dave G]

As posted..God has mercy on who He has mercy on, and has ordained whatever means that takes.
A severely retarded person who cannot process as a healthy person can still be the object of Gods saving grace
Romans 8:29-39...no one can lay any charge to any of the elect.
Repentance is granted by God, not inherent in any person.

I'm sorry, Tony...
But to me, that doesn't fully answer the question.

I agree that God can have mercy on whosoever He wishes...
The Scriptures are plain in that regard.
I'll re-state it again so that you know what I'm asking you...

Do you believe that God will save someone who has neither come to repentance, nor believed on Christ, nor have they confessed Him as Lord and Saviour ?

For example, per Psalms 139, David was known by the Lord while he was yet in his mother's womb.
The same for John the Baptist in Luke 1.
Per Jeremiah 1:5, he was known by the Lord before he was born.
Per Galatians 1:15-16, Paul was separated from his mother's womb and God was pleased to reveal Christ in him.

Yet, they all came to repentance and confessed the God of their salvation.

Please remember, Tony, that belief of the Gospel is a must, if someone is saved.
Only those who have believed on Christ are born again, and one must be born again to see the kingdom of God.
No one who does not believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins will be saved, as per John 3:16 and many others ( Like John 3:18 ), it is a Gospel of the "whosoever believeth", from the heart.


Can infants hear the word of God, comprehend it, confess with the mouth, and believe in their hearts that Jesus is the Christ ( Romans 10:8-10 )?
Please keep in mind that I am not speaking of the unborn...only those who die in infancy, never having heard the Gospel, nor having ever professed Christ.

Are infants who are such, in the same class as any other unbeliever?

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm sorry, Tony...
But to me, that doesn't fully answer the question.

I agree that God can have mercy on whosoever He wishes...
The Scriptures are plain in that regard.
I'll re-state it again so that you know what I'm asking you...

Do you believe that God will save someone who has neither come to repentance, nor believed on Christ, nor have they confessed Him as Lord and Saviour ?

For example, per Psalms 139, David was known by the Lord while he was yet in his mother's womb.
The same for John the Baptist in Luke 1.
Per Jeremiah 1:5, he was known by the Lord before he was born.
Per Galatians 1:15-16, Paul was separated from his mother's womb and God was pleased to reveal Christ in him.

Yet, they all came to repentance and confessed the God of their salvation.

Please remember, Tony, that belief of the Gospel is a must, if someone is saved.
Only those who have believed on Christ are born again, and one must be born again to see the kingdom of God.
No one who does not believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins will be saved, as per John 3:16 and many others ( Like John 3:18 ), it is a Gospel of the "whosoever believeth", from the heart.


Can infants hear the word of God, comprehend it, confess with the mouth, and believe in their hearts that Jesus is the Christ ( Romans 10:8-10 )?
Please keep in mind that I am not speaking of the unborn...only those who die in infancy, never having heard the Gospel, nor having ever professed Christ.

Are infants who are such, in the same class as any other unbeliever?

They are guilty sinners at conception.
The length of a persons life is set by God.I do not hold such a literal idea that persons of diminished capacity have to follow Jn 3 or romans 10 as a normal person does.
If those people were given in the Covenant of redemption they will be in heaven. If not they will not.If they are not in the Covenant of Redemption they will not be.
I believe salvation is granted by God, not dependent on an Arminian scheme of following a formula.
Earlier I posted that God ordains whatever means are necessary.....If you meet infants who die in infancy in Heaven....they will be fully grown,defective persons will be healed.They all will know Jesus is Lord. They will all be repentant.

Are you suggesting there will not be any such persons in Heaven?The confessional statement declares Elect infants, Elect disabled persons...
If none are elected your idea would have merit.
I stick with the wording of the historic confessions based on Gods Covenant love.

 

[Reformed1689]

They are guilty sinners at conception.
The length of a persons life is set by God.I do not hold such a literal idea that persons of diminished capacity have to follow Jn 3 or romans 10 as a normal person does.
If those people were given in the Covenant of redemption they will be in heaven. If not they will not.If they are not in the Covenant of Redemption they will not be.
I believe salvation is granted by God, not dependent on an Arminian scheme of following a formula.
Earlier I posted that God ordains whatever means are necessary.....If you meet infants who die in infancy in Heaven....they will be fully grown,defective persons will be healed.They all will know Jesus is Lord. They will all be repentant.

Are you suggesting there will not be any such persons in Heaven?The confessional statement declares Elect infants, Elect disabled persons...
If none are elected your idea would have merit.
I stick with the wording of the historic confessions based on Gods Covenant love.

And this is the problem I have with Covenant Theology. You have to fill in holes that Scripture does not fill in. What Scripture says that there are different rules for normal people vs everyone else, and where does it define what normal is? I don't believe Scripture has anything like that

 

[Dave G]

They are guilty sinners at conception.

Amen.

The length of a persons life is set by God.

Again, I agree.

I do not hold such a literal idea that persons of diminished capacity have to follow Jn 3 or romans 10 as a normal person does.

To agree with you here, I'd need to see where God's word specifically lays that out.
Otherwise, I believe that we are engaging in speculation, and I'd rather rest on the firm foundation of His word.