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What Happens to the Souls of the Well Meaning Churchgoers?

Bronconagurski

New Member
A general question to anyone re salvation as a fire escape:

Is the person who is genuinely convicted of sin, repents, believes, and accepts but is motivated by a fear of Hell well meaning and truly saved at that point?

If not, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God May not be as effective as thought.

The answer is yes. Sinners aren't saved because of what motivated them, although Jesus used fear of Hell as an impetus as I will show, but by repenting and putting their trust in Christ: that He is who He said He is and that He did what He said He did for our salvation.

Jesus preached hell as a place of judgement for both body and soul, and said to fear God, who had the power to put you there:

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus also described hell as a place where the worm dieth not and fire is not quenched, indication everlasting torment lest some say the body and soul are completely burnt up.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
After reading the OP's on who is at fault for the sinner going to hell? I couldn't help but wonder what the thoughts are about those church folks who came to love the Lord through things like catechism, church membership, etc.?

A lot of churches don't practice the theory of being born-again. There are those in my family who simply took classes and were made members of their respective churches, and they believe they are going to heaven because of their membership, service, giving, etc.

Will God hold the leaders of these denominations guilty for these lives, if in fact, they are lost? Is the blood of those multitudes on their hands?

How about the cult churches? The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc.? These are well meaning folks; many were introduced to these denominations at birth and know nothing else but their indoctrination. Will God spare those who were misled throughout his or her life?

What will God do with those "well-meaning" folks, mislead by denominational doctrines that did everything but teach and insist that a believer be born-again and follow Jesus in water baptism?

Depends if they preach/teach how the sinners gets saved the biblical way, regardless if the use of "born again' or not!

problem though is that MANY churches do indeed teach salvation that does not save,a s they hold to believing their own theology, getting baptised, spreaking in other tongues etc, but NO)T holding to being born again thru simply faith in jesus alone,byGrace alone!

We also recognize that God can save a sinner despite wrong, even heretical theology, as God has redeemed out Cathoics, even cult members, but that is due to his mercy and grace , NOT to their bad/wrong beliefs!
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
...the premise of my third book [Final Daze: God's Way or the Highway] is built around the text found in Matthew 7:14-23 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

(Therefore): “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’" (NLT)

It is evident to me, that the road to hell is traveled by a large number of folks. Some are rotten to the core sinners, and many more are well meaning, good intentioned people.

However, the fact remains: Jesus said that, Unless you have been born-again" you will not see heaven!

That doesn't say unless you are a Methodist; Lutheran, Catholic; Baptist; AofG; WOF; Independent; Non-denominational; Presbyterian; Episcopal; Mennonite; CoG in Christ; Mormon; Seven-Day Adventist; etc., etc., etc.!

Unfortunately, the highway to hell is crowded, and unless those folks that have trusted in the catechism, church membership, infant baptism or whatever come to Jesus and confess Him as Lord and be born-again, as Jesus told Nicodemus to do, there looks like God has no other option but to send them packing for eternity in hell!

Believe me, this makes me sad, because I have many family members, as does my wife, who are trusting things other than Jesus to get them to heaven, and because they think that I am some kind of nut or fanatic by preaching ye must be born-again, they too will be lost.

I'd love to believe something else, and I secretly hope I am wrong, but the Word of God seems concise and matter of fact when it comes to this, and that leaves me with a very heavy heart.

My first youth pastor job was in the United Church of Christ. I loved the pastor and his sweet wife, as did I love all the wonderful, supportive folks in that church. HOWEVER, when I caught a Billy Graham message on television and saw him holding an alter call and getting respondents to pray the sinner's prayer, a light went off within me, and I started to hold alter calls after each youth service, and before I knew it, there were more than 300 kids in the Jr-Sr High groups, and most of them had accepted Jesus as Savior.

One night the pastor came to a youth group concert I scheduled, and after the group finished singing, I had a short message and encouraged kids to come forward and accept Jesus and pray the sinner's prayer.

This infuriated the pastor, and the next day he sat me down and told me that this was not how [people came to Christ. He believed in the eight weekly classes and confirmation of the attendees being taught how to become a Christian, and their given a membership card once they knew the creeds and could recite the membership statement in front of the church at which time they were given their official cards, and their names were written in the church roles.

I was given an ultimatum, to quit doing alter calls, or resign. I resigned. :praying:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48
In Jesus's day it was believed the rich had an advantage over the poor for he was rich because he had been blessed by God, therefore when Jesus made this statement; And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matt 19:24 it drew this response; When his disciples heard, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 19:25

Has there been over one of himself perfect? Will there be more that one saved, entering the kingdom of God, inheriting eternal life.

If yes; How? Will it be for something they believe, something they do?

How about because it is the gift of God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just curious ... can a person be born again and not be well meaning?

Saved accidentally but not well meaning? I would have my doubts as if they aren't "well meaning" it would be just a show.

I was speaking once with a man who believes you can lose your salvation day in and day out and in the process he told me that he didn't believe in Death Bed Salvation. Why not, I asked? His response was that such was never recorded in the Bible.

...wow!

To me, the act of dying seals ones fate. Until they are dead who's to limit the Lord? :godisgood:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Question. If he is judged before he dies what does that verse above mean?
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've Yet to See This...

they hold to believing their own theology, getting baptised, spreaking in other tongues etc, but NOT holding to being born again thru simply faith in jesus alone

I am not aware of any AoG fellowships or many WOF fellowships that don't teach and emphasize the need to be born-again as the foundation of faith. This is a surprising statment, and while I don
t doubt you may have been associate with one such fellowship; as I said, I've never seen a spirit filled church that didn't preach "Ye must be born-again!" first and foremost.
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Me Thinks...

righteousdude2, when does a person become saved? When they walk the isle? When they decide to walk the isle? When they realize they should walk the isle? Why do we have to walk the isle? That thief on the cross certainly didn't walk the isle!

I to have often wondered about "good people" who devoted their lives to attending church. I'm sure many ended up not where they intended but then you have so many devoted individuals..., who's to say they never found favor with Jesus.

If they found Jesus contrary to the Baptist Way/understanding of coming to the Lord they would still be saved, no?

For sure though, not all roads lead to Rome. The Muslims are very dedicated but...

...they become saved when convicted, and they begin to move toward Jesus. This does not always meaning going forward to an alter call, as people have been saved in hospital rooms, battlefields, bars, cars, while hiking the mountain trails, while listening to a Billy Graham telecast, while reading a book or even the Bible, or like me, in the front seat of my car, way back in San Dimas Canyon on Christmas Eve afternoon, with my Baptist girlfriend aside me, sharing how Jesus was the only way to come to God. A light went on in my heart [one that has never gone off], and I prayed with her the sinner's prayer.

It's not so much the place where one is at; however, rather the place one's heart is at when they realize they are a sinner and need Jesus.

If a person had to find a church confessing their faith, that conviction and desire may be quashed by the devil himself between the time the person realizes the need to receive Jesus and finding an aisle to walk down.

Many believers have found Jesus in places that were spiritually intimate to them.

Great question. Thanks for asking. I hope I answered your question with some clarity?
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Amen....

I am of the opinion that Salvation is not that hard to attain.

John 6:37, “All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me: and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out”.

....this is so very true. All one really needs is an open, receptive, contrite heart; and the impetus to come to Him!

It's not even the words of the prayer, but rather the faith in the prayer.

On line there a many different versions of the Sinner's Prayer. Which one is correct? All of them and none of them; because unless there is true remorse and faith involved, the words mean nothing.

The Sinner's prayer is not a magic formula. It is merely words that lead one to Jesus. But how about the man, woman or child, dying alone, and realizing they may be facing not only death but life without God? Is not their last gasped words of faith just as potent and life changing as the ones spoken after a Billy Graham Crusade? I think they are.

It's all a matter of the heart and one's faith in what the say, not how they say it! :jesus:
 

Bronconagurski

New Member
i said your no answer in that YOU would not save all if you could was a lack of love :)becuase i sure would--because im just a sinner like all mankind-and a man that knows to do Good in that way--dont you think God who is all powerful and is LOVE would not do the same thing :)

See, your problem is that you thinking like a natural man. I have heard lost people use the same love argument. You don't know what you are talking about, comparing the way you think with the way God should think. You want to put God into a box and make Him do what you want. Sorry, your logic does not add up.

I guarantee you one thing, you would never give your only son over to evil men, to be tortured almost beyond recognition by being beaten by a whip with leather thongs on the end with objects such as bits of metal, etc., that would lay open the flesh upon him, so bad that his bones stared up at Him. He was so weak He could not carry His cross. You would not willingly send your son to die a slow death of suffocation after being nailed to a cross. No, you would never do that, pal, so by your logic, God would never do that either, because if sinful man wouldn't be that cruel, then surely God would not be that cruel to His own son. Do you see the fallacy of your argument? Thank God the Father that it pleased Him to bruise His own Son so that those who have faith in Him can be saved. Don't tell anyone how God should think, son, as you don't have a clue. Your words above are close to being blasphemous imo.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
As far as I am concerned its quite simple.

If they had sincere faith in Christ, they are saved. If they didnt,' they are lost.


If they never heard the gosple, they will of course be saved or lost acording to how they responded to the "Light" that they DID recieve.(Johns Gosple, I-10)

Praise God
 
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Thomas Helwys

New Member
See, your problem is that you thinking like a natural man. I have heard lost people use the same love argument. You don't know what you are talking about, comparing the way you think with the way God should think. You want to put God into a box and make Him do what you want. Sorry, your logic does not add up.

I guarantee you one thing, you would never give your only son over to evil men, to be tortured almost beyond recognition by being beaten by a whip with leather thongs on the end with objects such as bits of metal, etc., that would lay open the flesh upon him, so bad that his bones stared up at Him. He was so weak He could not carry His cross. You would not willingly send your son to die a slow death of suffocation after being nailed to a cross. No, you would never do that, pal, so by your logic, God would never do that either, because if sinful man wouldn't be that cruel, then surely God would not be that cruel to His own son. Do you see the fallacy of your argument? Thank God the Father that it pleased Him to bruise His own Son so that those who have faith in Him can be saved. Don't tell anyone how God should think, son, as you don't have a clue. Your words above are close to being blasphemous imo.

It seems to me that you are being too harsh to this person. Why? I don't understand your hostility.
 
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righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
First of all, WELCOME to the Board...

It seems to me that you are being too harsh to this person. Why? I don't understand your hostility.

...secondly, if you stick around long enough, you will get used to harsh, pithy, hostile and degrading responses used by a few on the board, Even though these folks at times anger me, I've learned that God still loves me, and that in the end, He will enlighten me as to any real errors I may have made in trying to dispense the truth of HIs Word to others. It's just that some believe they have the corner on God's truth. I know that I do not hold an error free understanding, and I try to proceed this way. If you go at this Board with this thought in mind and heart, you should be here years from now! :smilewinkgrin:

You are correct that is is wrong, but as one person once said, "The church buries's its wounded!" :tear:

I hope you stick it out here, and don't let the remarks of the few drive you away. For the most part, the greater percentage of members do have the ability, and the God-given gift, to disagree to disagree in warmth and love.

Again welcome!

Pastor Paul
 
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HisWitness

New Member
See, your problem is that you thinking like a natural man. I have heard lost people use the same love argument. You don't know what you are talking about, comparing the way you think with the way God should think. You want to put God into a box and make Him do what you want. Sorry, your logic does not add up.

I guarantee you one thing, you would never give your only son over to evil men, to be tortured almost beyond recognition by being beaten by a whip with leather thongs on the end with objects such as bits of metal, etc., that would lay open the flesh upon him, so bad that his bones stared up at Him. He was so weak He could not carry His cross. You would not willingly send your son to die a slow death of suffocation after being nailed to a cross. No, you would never do that, pal, so by your logic, God would never do that either, because if sinful man wouldn't be that cruel, then surely God would not be that cruel to His own son. Do you see the fallacy of your argument? Thank God the Father that it pleased Him to bruise His own Son so that those who have faith in Him can be saved. Don't tell anyone how God should think, son, as you don't have a clue. Your words above are close to being blasphemous imo.

OH!!! how the anger boils within you friend :)

God is LOVE--- Them who Loveth NOT their brother does NOT have the Love of God abiding in them !!!

Further more we are told to love and pray for our enemies just as Christ done the same for us when we were his enemies!!!

In you saying if you had power to save all mankind if you would do it?you said NO???

Lack of Love for your Brother i would say ??

I would most certainly do it if i had power to do so!!!

But fear not, God who is almighty hath done just that !!! :)
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
...secondly, if you stick around long enough, you will get used to harsh, pithy, hostile and degrading responses used by a few on the board, Even though these folks at times anger me, I've learned that God still loves me, and that in the end, He will enlighten me as to any real errors I may have made in trying to dispense the truth of HIs Word to others. It's just that some believe they have the corner on God's truth. I know that I do not hold an error free understanding, and I try to proceed this way. If you go at this Board with this thought in mind and heart, you should be here years from now! :smilewinkgrin:

You are correct that is is wrong, but as one person once said, "The church buries's its wounded!" :tear:

I hope you stick it out here, and don't let the remarks of the few drive you away. For the most part, the greater percentage of members do have the ability, and the God-given gift, to disagree to disagree in warmth and love.

Again welcome!

Pastor Paul

Thank you for your welcome!
 

Bronconagurski

New Member
It seems to me that you are being too harsh to this person. Why? I don't understand your hostility.

If you think that is hostile, then you are naive. A blasphemous fallacy demands a stern response. I don't know him, so there is no hostility to him. But I know his false doctrines, and they are lies out of hell that could potentially damn others to hell imo. It sees to me that he is the one treating God harshly by pretending to speak for Him.

Once again, it's mighty convenient for you to come along when you did to try and save him.
 

Bronconagurski

New Member
OH!!! how the anger boils within you friend :)

God is LOVE--- Them who Loveth NOT their brother does NOT have the Love of God abiding in them !!!

Further more we are told to love and pray for our enemies just as Christ done the same for us when we were his enemies!!!

In you saying if you had power to save all mankind if you would do it?you said NO???

Lack of Love for your Brother i would say ??

I would most certainly do it if i had power to do so!!!

But fear not, God who is almighty hath done just that !!! :)

No, the anger that boiled over was the anger of God at sin. When you look at what happened to Jesus, then you understand how much God hates sin. Your problem is that you only see the love of God. You can't have love without hate, and you can't have saved without lost. You try to have your cake and eat it too. You mispresent the scriptures, lie, and spread false doctrine. Those are despicable characteristics when men's souls are in the balance. There is nothing personal toward you as I don't know you. But I know your false doctrines.
 

Bronconagurski

New Member
OH!!! how the anger boils within you friend :)

God is LOVE--- Them who Loveth NOT their brother does NOT have the Love of God abiding in them !!!

Further more we are told to love and pray for our enemies just as Christ done the same for us when we were his enemies!!!

JUST BECAUSE WE ARE TO PRAY FOR OUR ENEMIES DOES NOT MEAN WE DO NOT TELL THEM THE TRUTH. MY PRAYER FOR YOU MIGHT SURPRISE YOU.

In you saying if you had power to save all mankind if you would do it?you said NO???

THERE IS ANOTHER LIE BY YOU. I NEVER SAID THAT. WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH THE TRUTH?

Lack of Love for your Brother i would say ??

I would most certainly do it if i had power to do so!!!

But fear not, God who is almighty hath done just that !!! :)

I posted immediately after your answers above in all caps so that you would see them better and realize they were from me. I most certainly never said if I were God and had the ability to save all men that I would not. I am not God nor do I pretend to be as you seem to do.

Speaking of being harsh, who said the following:

John 8:43-45 (KJV)
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Notice the reference to lying?
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
If you think that is hostile, then you are naive. A blasphemous fallacy demands a stern response. I don't know him, so there is no hostility to him. But I know his false doctrines, and they are lies out of hell that could potentially damn others to hell imo. It sees to me that he is the one treating God harshly by pretending to speak for Him.

Once again, it's mighty convenient for you to come along when you did to try and save him.

I have decided that I don't like you very much. Why? Your primary mode of communication is the insult.

I can assure you I am not naive. Further, I have run across a lot of people like you, and I didn't care for them, either.

I also don't like your insinuations. What are you trying to say? I "came along when I did" because I did a search for theology discussions forums, found this one, registered, and waited for my account to be approved. As soon as it was, I began posting. I was reading the forum while waiting for my registration to be approved. It's as simple as that.

So, spit it out: Are you hypothesizing some kind of conspiracy theory between me and this other person? If so, it seems you have more than just a personality problem.
 

Bronconagurski

New Member
I have decided that I don't like you very much. Why? Your primary mode of communication is the insult.

I can assure you I am not naive. Further, I have run across a lot of people like you, and I didn't care for them, either.

I also don't like your insinuations. What are you trying to say? I "came along when I did" because I did a search for theology discussions forums, found this one, registered, and waited for my account to be approved. As soon as it was, I began posting. I was reading the forum while waiting for my registration to be approved. It's as simple as that.

So, spit it out: Are you hypothesizing some kind of conspiracy theory between me and this other person? If so, it seems you have more than just a personality problem.

As you just admitted, you are the one with the problem with me. I just noticed that you came along and only posted on threads hiswitness had started, and you seem to take it personally when others post to contradict his fallacies. That is my opinion. You have made yours plain: you don't like me. What happened to love? Hiswitness even tried to imply that God sent you to back him up. No, if anyone sent you to back up fallacies, it was not God. You say you don't believe in universalism, and I presume you believe in eternal punishment of the lost, yet you defend his posts as if they are true. You immediately gave hiswitness advice to try and keep him here. After that, he would not answer the simplest question: Do you believe that the lost will be in hell forever? You told him you hope he doesn't get banned. Me,, I pray for his salvation if he isn't saved, and for him to quit his lying and spreading of false doctrine if he is. You have no problem with it and don't seem to care if it causes anyone that may be lost here to think they are saved because he says that everyone will be saved. Don't you have a problem with that?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
After reading the OP's on who is at fault for the sinner going to hell? I couldn't help but wonder what the thoughts are about those church folks who came to love the Lord through things like catechism, church membership, etc.?

A lot of churches don't practice the theory of being born-again. There are those in my family who simply took classes and were made members of their respective churches, and they believe they are going to heaven because of their membership, service, giving, etc.

Will God hold the leaders of these denominations guilty for these lives, if in fact, they are lost? Is the blood of those multitudes on their hands?

How about the cult churches? The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc.? These are well meaning folks; many were introduced to these denominations at birth and know nothing else but their indoctrination. Will God spare those who were misled throughout his or her life?

What will God do with those "well-meaning" folks, mislead by denominational doctrines that did everything but teach and insist that a believer be born-again and follow Jesus in water baptism?

I believe we are all responsible for our own souls. Yesterday I spoke to some Catholics about Salvation who claimed to already be saved. It seems impossible to explain Salvation to someone who believes they are saved already. They gave me a very poor account of their Salvation. It seems they might believe the Roman Catholic Church's baptism, and the Eucharist actually saves them because not one of them ever mentioned the death and resurrection of Christ or His ascending in to heaven. In my opinion believing this is most important. Maybe some of the more educated Catholics may know that faith is what actually saves and that is the faith that Christ' death and resurrection is what that faith is all about.
MB
 

HisWitness

New Member
I posted immediately after your answers above in all caps so that you would see them better and realize they were from me. I most certainly never said if I were God and had the ability to save all men that I would not. I am not God nor do I pretend to be as you seem to do.

Speaking of being harsh, who said the following:

John 8:43-45 (KJV)
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Notice the reference to lying?

i never said if you were God friend--your adding words again :)
 
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