What has ceased?

[Gina B]

I do believe some gifts have ceased because of unbelief, but that God can and still does grant them when needed, but when was the last time you saw someone in need of the gift of tongues?
I was speaking to a man whose son was a missionary in China. His son picked up on the language within DAYS. Gift of tongues? In my opinion, that's what that was. He needed that language to communicate and God granted him the ability to use it.
As far as healing goes, I can't find people who will pray over and annoint a sick person in faith. I don't know why that scares people so much. I wanted this done for my daughter but the only people who do it are the mormons, in the form of a blessing. That's very sad to me that I could look among God's people and not find any willing to follow the scriptures in fulfilling this needed part of our Christian lives.
The gifts aren't signs, they're gifts that I believe God gladly bestows to those in need of them.
Gina

 

[Ray Berrian]

Gina L.

I know where you are coming from.

I am not a faith healer, but God healed two people definitely when I believed and followed the instruction found in James 5:13-16. One was a dying fourteen month old baby, my first son, Brian. I had called my parents to drive 250 miles because his ribs were showing and he could not even keep down water over a period of time. We did not expect him to live. My father and mother arrived and that even he steadily got better. This was about thirty years ago at my first church in Herndon, Pennsylvania, about 20 miles south of Sunbury on the Susquehanna River.

The other person was my wife, who had a problem on one side of her chest. After anointing her with oil in fervent prayer immediately the lump was gone. She has had positive tests for several years now with reference to doctors.

Just a few weeks ago my wife and I stood with someone we love very much and I had the woman read the above passage and I anointed her with oil on her head and on her forearms. She has tingling in her arms and legs and is under the care of several medical specialists. To date she has not been healed from her condition. Sometimes it is not the Lord will to touch people by way of healing them. Why? Only God knows.

As to this woman I wish I also knew a faith healer who might be able to be instrumental in healing her condition. Many family members and friends are continuing to pray for her. When I anoint people, which is very seldom, I get disappointed if the Lord does not see fit to heal them, but I do bow before His most holy will.

I guess for some Christians they either don't believe in James five or they mark it off with a black highlighter.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

..the Apostle Paul says to 'covet preaching' but 'forbid not to speak in tongues.' [I Corinthians 14:39-40] Why do people who have been Christians for fifty years continue to go to church? There are many reasons some of which are to be with God's people, to receive encouragement in their golden years, and to hear a fresh word from the Lord. The interpretation of tongues is always uplifting and makes you realize that the Lord is infinitely much, much greater than our little problems of life. It comes through to the hearer that it is direct from the Lord and leaves one with a spiritual high.
[/QB]

Ray, good explanation!

Isaiah 28:11-12:
11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

When the Jews rejected God and His gift of salvation, we, the Gentiles accepted Him and His gifts.

Tongues have not ceased! They will, as the Bible has stated, but not until that which is perfect or complete, is come, which is the end of the Gentile dispensation or the rapture of "The Church."

MEE

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Gina L:

As far as healing goes, I can't find people who will pray over and annoint a sick person in faith. I don't know why that scares people so much. I wanted this done for my daughter but the only people who do it are the mormons, in the form of a blessing. That's very sad to me that I could look among God's people and not find any willing to follow the scriptures in fulfilling this needed part of our Christian lives.
The gifts aren't signs, they're gifts that I believe God gladly bestows to those in need of them.
Gina

Gina, if I had read your post five years ago I would have been in shock. Since I started to serve the Lord, I have known nothing but our ministers annointing our people with oil, while praying for the sick. I would have thought every person reading the book of James would have been obedient to the Word.

Through the years I have seen and heard of people that have been healed, by God, and the doctors have no explanation, other than it has to be a miracle.

I thank God for His gifts!

MEE

 

[Ray Berrian]

Lorelei,

My guess is that your pastor might not favor you going to a church where this takes place in a service of Divine worship. By a 'high' I meant that the result for me was a great lift and spiritual blessing.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

Isaiah 28:11-12:
11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

This passage of Scripture, quoted by Paul in 1Cor.14:21,22, is applicable to the nation of Israel only. As quoted above "with stammering lips and other tongues will he speak to the nation of Israel, not the believing Gentiles. Then Paul goes on to say in verse 22 and further explains that those Jews were unbelivers and that tongues were a sign to the unbelievers (the unbelieving Jews). What this has to do with Christians today is nothing, and why "tongues-speakers persist in this heresy I will never know, for this passage clearly shows that it is a sign to the unbelieving Jew, and to him only.

(Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

When the Jews rejected God and His gift of salvation, we, the Gentiles accepted Him and His gifts.

Context:
Acts 3:3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

The sermon in Acts three was given to the Jews in the Temple. Peter was speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. Certainly verse 19 speaks of salvation, but there is no justification in these verses for tongues.

Tongues have not ceased! They will, as the Bible has stated, but not until that which is perfect or complete, is come, which is the end of the Gentile dispensation or the rapture of "The Church."

That which is perfect HAS come. It is the perfect Word of God. Tongues have ceased. You have an imitation of the real thing.
DHK

 

[Gina B]

Let's look at the verse about tongues in their context:

1COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1COR 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1COR 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1COR 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There ARE two possible explanations. Since it was written AFTER the death of Christ, it's reasonable that it isn't referring to Christ's death as "when that which is perfect".
It would make sense to say that it CAN be referring to the bible being complete.
It would make MORE sense in that context if we now saw perfectly, face to face.
But we don't.
We still see "through a glass". We see a reflection of God's word. "And the word became flesh". When we see God in the flesh, we will no longer be seeing through a glass.
Prophecies and tongues will cease completely because there will be no need. There is one now, and prophecy as known in older times that we do not see now for a lack of faith will again be seen, as noted in revelation where it states that there will be prophecy and vision by those we normally do not expect it from.
Hope, love, and charity are eternal concepts. Tongues and prophecy are not. There will always be hope, love, and charity because they are part of the nature of Christ.
Gina

 

[Briguy]

Why did I know this would turn into another tongues debate.

Tongues end at a different time then Prophecy and knowledge. You can't look past that Wheteher it all the gifts ended when the Bible was complete, is not the point with tongues. They will cease on their own, with nothing happening to them. The reason we know this is the verb Paul used. It means they will fade away on their own. Prophecy and knowledge have a different greek word for cease and it means that they will end when something makes them end or when something happens to them. That we know is the coming of the perfect. You must start with that point as it is clear from the greek text. That said what makes the most sense considering they are a "sign". Signs point to something, like a curve in the road. When you pass the curve there are no more signs saying the curve is coming. Tongues pointed to a Judgement and fall of Isreal, which happened in 70ad. Tongues then faded away as the people with the gift died out. That is the only explanation that works when considering the greek words that Paul used. Tongues must fade away, like a candle burning out. Now how is the rapture coming a slow fade out for tongues? Even the Word of God being completed still is like something making them end, and that is not accurate.

Please deal with that issue and then we can continue. Thanks much!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Gina B]

Briguy, who are you talking to, and why do you seem so frustrated?
Gina

 

[cotton]

DHK;
I am reposting this because I wasn't sure you saw my response. Cotton

Originally posted by cotton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Cotton:
[qb]

I NEVER stated or implied that we are or anyone ever was saved by the law! Once again you say the law has been 'abolished' yet Matthews 5:17-19 states emphatically that will not happen as long as heaven and earth stand.

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

All the law had not, and still has not been fulfilled. It had not been fulfilled when Jesus said that, for He had not yet been crucified. There are many, many prophecies in the law concerning his death, and the Messiah to come. There still are many promises yet to be fulfilled when He shall come a second time to set up His Millennial Kingdom. All has not been fulfilled. Your argument here does not stand. It isn't talking of the ceremonial law of the Jews, which was abolished at the cross.

Okay, before you were saying the law is abolished; now you are saying it isn't.

No where is it written that obedience to God's word has to be perfect or kept to the letter.

Where?
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--This verse is self-explanatory.

Yes, the context thereof in JUDGING OTHERS; we are not to judge others in their obedience;there is none that is righteous, not one, but that doesn't mean we don't pursue righteousness and obedience.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--I have explained this verse before; yet it also is self-explanatory. You must continue in all things written in the law from birth to death, every day, without transgressing even once, or you are cursed—condemned. Ever told a lie??

We are no longer under the CURSE because Y'shua's blood covers our sins, He has redeemed our sin debt, and if we love Him we will "obey His commandments".
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Once more you leave out the verse in the middle. verse 9 says, If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Whether I 'keep the law' or not has nothing to do with the original premiss that Brian states "all the rules of the law are done away with..." I only have to show that any one of them is still valid to negate his hypothesis.

This is not true. According to James 2:10, a violation of any one of the laws is just as bad as violating all of the laws.

Absolutely, however our arguement is whether or not "all the rules of the law are abolished with the coming of the church" or words to that effect. Whether or not I observe or not has nothing to do with the law being abolished!

Gal 5:14 For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: "Love yur neighbor as yourself"; (Lev 19:18).
Tell me is this one still valid?

Yes it is, and I imagine that you break it every day. If you loved your neighbor as yourself you would be a missionary to the most needy country on the face of the earth: perhaps China or India where there are the most people to reach and the least number of Christian missionaries to reach them. That is loving your neighbor. You would give all that you have to the poor and follow Christ, as Christ told the rich man. That is a part of loving your neighbor as yourself, because most of the world has nothing. They live in abject poverty with no good drinking water, no electricity, no gas for heating, etc.—things we take for granted. Do you love your neighbor as yourself? I doubt it.


I apologize for not being a missionary, however does that apply to everyone here as well?
Does this have anything to do with whether or not the law has been abolished? Do you consider a personal attack on me as "fair game" to avoid your argument?
All I can do is quote Y'shua "judge not lest ye be jugded."

Ephesians 6:2 "Honor your Mother and Father"-this is the first commandment that embodies a promise-"so that it may go well with you, and you may live long in the Land." (Ex. 20:12, Deut. 5:16)

If all the rules of the Law are 'abolished' why
does Paul quote this? If the Law is 'null and void' is the 'embodiment of promise' gone as well?

No, the reference that you give is Exodus 20:12, where God's moral law, "the Ten Commandments is given. God did not abolish that, except for the keeping of the Sabbath Day, which was a sign of the covenant with Israel (see Exodus 31). All other commandments are repeated in the New Testament. Consider this Scripture:

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
All the peoples of all the nations of the world have God's moral law written on their hearts—the Ten Commandments minus keeping the Sabbath Day. That is the moral law of God which you can see in any country. People know that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, etc. Their conscience bears witness to this, that these things are wrong. God has put into their hearts his moral law.

All this serves to prove that the law HAS NOT BEEN ABOLISHED, which you now apparently agree to, which was what I stated in the first place! And your false impression of the Sabbath being 'done away with' is another topic.

You seem to imply that Romans 8:2-4 says that Israel failed to keep the Law, so God had to 'resort to plant "B" and send in Y'shua' (forgive me if I twist your meaning). TORAH NEVER 'BROUGHT' SALVATION; KEEPING THE TORAH WAS NEVER MEANT AS A MEANS TO SALVATION!" Y'SHUA WAS ALWAYS PLAN "A".

That is correct. Salvation has always been by faith and faith alone. Faith in God as revealed in the Word of God. The law simply shows us our sinfulness. The ceremonial law and the judicial law of the Jews were abolished, nailed to the cross, when Christ paid the penalty for our sins.

I don't necessarily agree that the ceremonial and the judicial laws OF GOD (since he wrote them) were nailed to the cross; the 'ordinances' here are called 'dogma' in the Greek. But your argument is close enough not to fight over.

Why did you skip over Gal 3:21-Is the Law then agains the promises of God? Certainly not! FOR IF THERE HAD BEEN A LAW GIVEN WHICH COULD HAVE GIVEN, LIFE TRULY RIGHTEOUSNESS WOULD HAVE BEEN BY THE LAW.

This shows the law was never intended to be misused for salvation. Romans 8:3 doesn't say anything about Israel at all, it just says that the law could not bring about salvation, which is what Gal 3:21 says.

Let's look again what the passage says.

Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
--But no such law could be given that could bring righteousness, therefore God sent His Son, that we might have righteousness by believing in Him. No man can keep the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
--As above, no man could keep the law—all are under sin; therefore God sent Christ that all who should believe in Him might have eternal life.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--The O.T. saints were under the law, but the law could not save them. They were "shut up" unto the faith which only afterward would be revealed. The law only showed their sinfulness.

The "O.T. saints" were under the curse of the law, which is sin and death. They were saved by grace through faith;

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
--What is the law? It is our schoolmaster, showing our sinfulness in order to bring us to Christ.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
--Now we are no longer under the schoolmaster which is the law. It is very, very, clear here. If you reject these verses, you are rejecting the Word of God. The law is done away with. We are no longer under the law (our schoolmaster)!

IF the law ONLY serves one purpose! The Torah is much more than that! Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! ON THE CONTRARY WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

And prior to that Romans 7:12-14, Therefor the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then wht is good become deatht to me? Certainly not! But SIN, THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, WAS PRODUCING DEATH IN ME THROUGH WHAT IS GOOD, SO THAT SIN THROUGH THE COMMANDMENT MIGHT BECOME EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL. For we know that the law (Torah) is spiritual, but I am coarnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 8:7-9 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--If you follow the law you are in the flesh, acting out of the flesh. God says you are none of His.

Actually this means, if you follow the law IN THE FLESH you are acting in disobedience. If you follow the law IN THE SPIRIT you are acting according to God.


Cotton </font>

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:

Originally posted by MEE:
[qb]
Isaiah 28:11-12:
11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

This passage of Scripture, quoted by Paul in 1Cor.14:21,22, is applicable to the nation of Israel only. As quoted above "with stammering lips and other tongues will he speak to the nation of Israel, not the believing Gentiles. Then Paul goes on to say in verse 22 and further explains that those Jews were unbelivers and that tongues were a sign to the unbelievers (the unbelieving Jews). What this has to do with Christians today is nothing, and why "tongues-speakers persist in this heresy I will never know, for this passage clearly shows that it is a sign to the unbelieving Jew, and to him only.

***What you fail to see is that when these Jews rejected God's plan of salvation, it was given to the Gentiles. Have you forgotten Cornelius? In Acts 10:44-46, the Gentiles were granted salvation. Yes the Jews believed that God had poured out the "Gift of the Holy Ghost." WHY? ..verse 46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. You never mention how the Gentiles felt about "speaking in tongues" and how they believed! So what if Jews were present when the Gentiles were first given the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost." Jews don't have to be present today when God fills someone with His Spirit!

MEE

 

[cotton]

Originally posted by Briguy:
[QB] Why did I know this would turn into another tongues debate.

Maybe you knew by the tone of your first post.

You said: Tongues end at a different time then Prophecy and knowledge. You can't look past that Wheteher it all the gifts ended when the Bible was complete, is not the point with tongues. They will cease on their own, with nothing happening to them. The reason we know this is the verb Paul used. It means they will fade away on their own. Prophecy and knowledge have a different greek word for cease and it means that they will end when something makes them end or when something happens to them. That we know is the coming of the perfect. You must start with that point as it is clear from the greek text. That said what makes the most sense considering they are a "sign". Signs point to something, like a curve in the road. When you pass the curve there are no more signs saying the curve is coming. Tongues pointed to a Judgement and fall of Isreal, which happened in 70ad.

Actually this was Jerusalem, not Israel.

You said: Tongues then faded away as the people with the gift died out. That is the only explanation that works when considering the greek words that Paul used. Tongues must fade away, like a candle burning out. Now how is the rapture coming a slow fade out for tongues?

If pauo (sp?) is that word (and my Bible program could be mistaken, I've found a couple) its used throughout the N.T. and doesn't have to mean fade away. The context of the scripture Gina posted seems to indicate these gifts 'ceasing' hinges on "that which is perfect" arriving. This could just as easily be interpreted to mean the kingdom of Heaven.

Cotton

 

[Ray Berrian]

Gina L,

You said, 'When we see God in the flesh, we will no longer be seeing through a glass.

Hope, love, and charity are eternal concepts. Tongues and prophecy are not.
There will always be hope, love, and charity because they are part of the
nature of Christ.'

Gina, these were the best parts of your post; very good. When we see Christ at the gathering of the saints into Heaven, these gifts will have served their purpose.

Christian love for everyone, especially toward those who are of the 'household of faith' is a of greatest priority. It is something that the Lord reminds me of daily. Without this my 'small candle' becomes very dim to other Christians and sinners.

 

[MEE]

1 Cor. 13:8).....whether there be tongues, they shall cease;

Strong's Concordance:

Cease: 3973
to stop
restrain
quit
disist
come to an end


No mentioning of fading away, which sounds like a slow process. Sorry Brian, it looks like tongues, as the Spirit of God gives the utterance, is here to stay until the Lord returns.

MEE

 

[MEE]

Hey Brian, your picture reminds me of the guy that played Jesus in "The Passion of The Christ." Add a little hair and you could pass.

Maybe you should get in touch with Mel. Who knows maybe he'll be doing another movie.

Sorry, OFF TOPIC...

MEE

 

[Ray Berrian]

MEE,

About the gift of tongues ceasing . . . I agree with you. Why would the Lord take away His gifts to the church before we are out of here? Are we less important that the first century church? Are we less valuable to our Lord than the Corinthian Church? I vote no.

The Greek word as you said is 'pano' meaning to stop, restrain, quit, desist, come to an end, leave or refrain.

 

[DHK]

Cotton:

Okay, before you were saying the law is abolished; now you are saying it isn't.

This statement is in response to Mat. 5:17,18. I answered you clearly that God never did away with the moral law that was written on the hearts of every man (Rom. 2:14,15), neither the prophecies contained in the law and the prophets which are yet to be fulfilled. This is what Christ is referring to here. Look again at Scripture:

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances (laws) were nailed to the cross. This is not the moral law—the Ten Commandments; it is the ceremonial law, and the judicial laws of the Jews that do not apply to us any longer. As Paul goes on to explain it is the Sabbaths, the holy days, the festivals, the sacrifices, all of which were simply a shadow of that which was to come. That which was to come has come—Jesus Christ. We do not need the shadow any longer. We have the reality—Jesus Christ. The other is done away with, including the Sabbath which is a sign of the covenant given to the nation of Israel alone (Exodus 31).

I apologize for not being a missionary, however does that apply to everyone here as well?
Does this have anything to do with whether or not the law has been abolished? Do you consider a personal attack on me as "fair game" to avoid your argument?
All I can do is quote Y'shua "judge not lest ye be jugded."

This statement was made in response to the command in Deuteronomy "Love thy neighbor as thyself," repeated by Jesus in Matthew 22:39. This by no means is an attack on you. Please take the "you" in my response as generic, applying to everyone. The Great Commission in Mat. 28:19,20 applies to every Christian. Jesus said to all to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. No Christian is exempted from that command. This is loving your neighbor as yourself. Our neighbor is the world. The world is the harvest field to which we are sent. God has never called any one to be pew warmers. The Great Commission is always go; never stay. If I truly love my neighbor as myself I will go unto the ends of the world and tell him the gospel. In the light of this, I challenge you as I challenge all: Why should any person have the right to hear the gospel twice, when so many have not heard it even once? Love thy neighbor as thyself.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--This verse is self-explanatory.

Yes, the context thereof in JUDGING OTHERS; we are not to judge others in their obedience;there is none that is righteous, not one, but that doesn't mean we don't pursue righteousness and obedience

This is a principle which is stated clearly in other passages of Scripture. It has nothing to do with judging others. If you break the one law you are as guilty as if you broke the whole law. I didn't say it; God did. If you disagree, take it up with God, don't try to rationalize your way out of this one. Man cannot keep the law. It is an impossibility. That is what James is saying.

We are no longer under the CURSE because Y'shua's blood covers our sins, He
has redeemed our sin debt, and if we love Him we will "obey His
commandments".

You answered this in relation to Gal.3:10. Agreed. "If we love Him we will obey His commandments. Not the O.T. law, but His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous. "A new commandment I give unto you that ye love one another." His commandments are in the N.T., not in the Old. They do not include the Levitical law which He abolished.

Once more you leave out the verse in the middle. verse 9 says, If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

What does it matter if I left out verse 9 (1John 1:8-10). Verses 8 and 10 tell us that if we say that we have no sin, we are liars, and the truth is not in us. We also make Jesus Christ a liar. The point made was in connection with James 2:10, which as I just mentioned is a principle that can be found in other Scriptures such as these.

Absolutely, however our arguement is whether or not "all the rules of the law are abolished with the coming of the church" or words to that effect. Whether or not I observe or not has nothing to do with the law being abolished!

This is a response made to James 2:10 again. It has everything to do with whether or not you have the ability to observe all the law. You don't. It is impossible. It puts you under the curse of the law. If you are still under the curse of the law, you have no hope in eternity and are still condemned to Hell. Christ became a curse for us. Thus we are not under the law.

All this serves to prove that the law HAS NOT BEEN ABOLISHED, which you now apparently agree to, which was what I stated in the first place! And your false impression of the Sabbath being 'done away with' is another topic.

A response to Exodus 20 and Romans 2:14,15. Be more specific. It serves to prove that God's moral law has not been abolished, as has already been stated. God nailed to the cross the levitical law—the sacrifices, holy days, Sabbaths, and all ceremonial law to the cross. We are no longer under the law in that sense. Study Acts 15 as well. The Judaizers were trying to impose circumcision and the law of Moses upon the Gentiles. They said that one could not be saved without it. The decree issued by James, the pastor of the church at Jerusalem, was that circumcision and the law were not binding on the Gentiles, and had no part of Salvation.

Gal.3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--The O.T. saints were under the law, but the law could not save them. They were "shut up" unto the faith which only afterward would be revealed. The law only showed their sinfulness.

The "O.T. saints" were under the curse of the law, which is sin and death. They were saved by grace through faith;

You are arguing against Scripture, and against God. I simply quoted Scripture and you want to say the opposite of it. It plainly says "the faith which only afterward would be revealed." I did not say it; God did. Their faith was in the revelation of God as they knew it, that is faith in Jehovah. It was not faith in the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross which they knew nothing about and could not possibly understand.

IF the law ONLY serves one purpose! The Torah is much more than that! Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! ON THE CONTRARY WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Again this is a simple matter of unbelief. In relation to Gal.3:24,25, you just simply refuse to believe what the Scripture so plainly says. I didn't write it; God did. The law is our school master to bring us to Christ. We are no longer under the schoolmaster. We are no longer under the law. Accept it or reject it. It is God's Word. He has spoken.
As I have mentioned before "the Law" is used in more than just one sense and doesn't always refer to ALL the books of Moses as you infer that it does. It does not refer to the Pentateuch here which is the Torah. It refers more to the Ten Commandments which no man can keep. Have you ever told a lie?

Actually this means, if you follow the law IN THE FLESH you are acting in disobedience. If you follow the law IN THE SPIRIT you are acting according to God.

Not quite Cotton. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." "If any man have not the Spirit of God, he is none of His" If you don't have the Spirit of God, and are acting entirely out of the flesh, you do not belong to God, and you are not one of his children (again I use "you" generically meaning anybody).
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

***What you fail to see is that when these Jews rejected God's plan of salvation, it was given to the Gentiles. Have you forgotten Cornelius? In Acts 10:44-46, the Gentiles were granted salvation. Yes the Jews believed that God had poured out the "Gift of the Holy Ghost." WHY? ..verse 46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. You never mention how the Gentiles felt about "speaking in tongues" and how they believed! So what if Jews were present when the Gentiles were first given the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost." Jews don't have to be present today when God fills someone with His Spirit!
MEE

In John 1, "He came to His own. His own received Him not. But as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
In John 3:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In Romans 1:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world, Jews included. Even after the nation of Israel rejected Christ as their Messiah there were thousands of Jews saved. Christ had still come to them as much as He had come for the Gentiles. The turning point here was that now the Gentiles were included in the plan of salvation. Salvation was for the entire world. It was not just Israel that was the chosen nation, but all who would believe on Christ (Jew and Gentile). On the Day of Pentecost it was 3,000 Jews that were saved, another 4,000 a couple of days later. Out of all of these 7,000 not more than 120 spoke in tongues. There are some that would say only the 12 spoke in tongues. At any rate very few spoke in tongues. Why? It was a sign to all these Jews that this message that they were preaching was from God, that this Christ whom they had crucified was indeed the Messiah, and that it was only through Him that they would get forgiveness of sins. It was not a message that they wanted to hear or believe. But the sign of tongues was a sign that this message was from God.

Likewise when the message went out to the house of Cornelius, they spoke with tongues. Why? If you read the account Peter had taken with him other Jews. These Jews did not believe that the gospel message should ever go to the Gentiles. Gentiles were but dogs in their eyes. After they were saved they spoke in tongues. This convinced the Jews (unbelievers only in the sense that they did not believe that salvation was yet granted to the Gentiles) that now salvation had spread to the Gentiles as well.
In the first century the Jews saw that salvation was given to the Jews. They saw that they had their chance to repent and trust Christ. Many did; but most did not. For this reason judgement came upon the city of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and the prophecy of Isaiah 28 was fulfilled, as it was stated by Paul in 1Cor.14:21,22. The prophecy relates only to unbelieving Jews of the first century. That is when the judgement came and was fulfilled. The Jews had their chance, they did not take advantage of it. Tongues have ceased.
Don't try to rationalize Scripture away. It is there for a purpose. God says in 1Cor.14:21,22 that tongues are a sign for the Jewish nation; that tongues are a sign for unbelievers. Putting one and one together they are a sign for the unbelieving Jews. God wrote that for a purpose. If you try to deny that you simply end up calling God a liar. It is there for a purpose.
DHK

 

[atestring]

Dkh,
If a person disagrees with you on an issue does this mean that they are calling God a liar?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by atestring:
Dkh,
If a person disagrees with you on an issue does this mean that they are calling God a liar?

atestring, IMO, if everyone doesn't agree with DHK, they are wrong, according to him!...but I'm sure he believes what he teaches. He's just simply mistaken, about some things. We'll give him a little credit.


MEE