Originally posted by music4Him:
DHK,
There are some things that every one will dissagree on about the bible. I have made my beliefs known anout women ceasing to speak in church as you have as to why you think they should be quiet.
Music4Him
Let's consider what you say in the light of Scripture. But first let me say that women definitely do have a place in the ministry and in the church. Please remember, that I have been emphasizing that 1Cor.14:34,35 is a prohibition for women to keep silent in the churches, in the context of tongues, not in all other areas. Paul was addressing the specific abuse of tongues.
Considering the word for "pastor" it is never used in a feminine sense, always in a masculine sense. There are three words that define the role of a pastor: elder, bishop, pastor. The word for bishop means overseer. The word for pastor means shepherd. They were always used in a masculine gender, never for women.
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the
elders of the church.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you
overseers, to
feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
In the above two verses in Acts 20 we have the three words or functions of a pastor used:
1. Elders or presbuteros
2. overseer or bishop (episkopos)
3. feeding the sheep—the work of a shepherd or pastor.
--In Acts 20 Paul called the men of the church together. There were no women there. These men were a plurality of elders or pastors. The gender of the nouns indicate this. There were no female pastors in the Bible.
Every pastor, elder, bishop, (all words describing different aspects of the same office) in the Bible is always a man, and never a woman. The qualifications for both a pastor and a deacon in 1Timothy 3 are for a man and not a woman. Women are never pastors in the Bible. There is no Biblical evidence for it.
Here is one of many passages that speak of the role of women in the church.
1 Timothy 2:9-12 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Verse 9 speaks of the woman's dress and modesty.
Verse 10 speaks of the woman's example of godliness and good works
Verse 11 speaks of how the woman should keep silence in the service of the church. She is there to learn; not to preach. And when she learns she needs to do it quietly.
Verse 12 Paul speaks plainly. I do not allow a woman to preach, or teach, or to have any authority over a man, but rather to be in silence.
Within the confines of the above verses we define the role of the woman in the church. Remember that the word church simply means congregation, and not building. Thus a woman cannot be a teacher or preacher over a congregation of men, or men and women. But she can teach women, and children. That is why we have Sunday School teachers that are ladies. They can serve in other non-teaching areas—in ministry such as music. But as the above verses teach, they have a great ministry simply by the lives that they live, in setting an example of living a godly life full of good works in submission to their husbands.
Concerning deacons:
The word for deacon is simply an Anglicized word transliterated from the Greek diakonos, which means servant. The better translation is servant. That is what the word actually means: "servant." My position (a bit different than others) is that there is no office of a deacon. Deacon simply means servant. The qualifications of the men that are willing to serve are set forth in 1Tim.3. The church would also establish similar standards for women who would serve in their own ministries, which Paul does mention. The word deacon in 1Tim.3 is in the male gender, unlike Rom.16:1, where the word for servant, the word "diakonays" is used, which is the feminine form of the word for servant. It doesn't mean that there are deaconesses, but rather that there are women in the church that serve in various capacities. It is dangerous to (IMO) to elevate the word or person of "deacon" or "deaconess" to an official office, when the word simply means servant. Today the word "office" carries the aura of authority. 400 years ago the English word "office" meant service. When one thinks through our government positions this becomes more evident.
Our government has a "Public Works Ministry," and a "Minister of Public Works." His "office" is to oversee those that work under him. The Public Works Service has a Servant, the "Servant of Public Works." His "service" is to oversee those that work under him for the betterment of the country. The old English word office was always used in the sense of service. Today it is used too much in the sense of authority, so much so that a board of deacons has more authority than the pastor himself which is unscriptural.
Phoebe, was a female servant, sent by Paul to serve in the church in Rome.
Robertson has this to say about deaconesses:
In some sense Phoebe was a servant or minister of the church in Cenchreae. Besides, right in the midst of the discussion in 1Ti_3:8-13 Paul has a discussion of gunaikav (verse Rom_1:11) either as women as deaconesses or as the wives of deacons (less likely though possible). The Apostolic Constitutions has numerous allusions to deaconesses. The strict separation of the sexes made something like deaconesses necessary for baptism, visiting the women, etc. Cenchreae, as the eastern port of Corinth, called for much service of this kind. Whether the deaconesses were a separate organization on a par with the deacons we do not know nor whether they were the widows alluded to in 1Ti_5:9 f.
What we do know is that there were no women that were pastors.
Thus the Bible teaches:
That women are not to teach or usurp authority over the men in the church.
That they are to learn in silence (in the services of the church.)
That they are to be quiet (silent) in the church and not to speak at all (especially in respect to the gift of tongues.)
That women still have a ministry among other women and children in the church.
And "groanings which cannot be uttered are just that—sounds which are impossible for one to utter. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of man, and therefore not even audible to man. They cannot be spoken by, or heard by man. They cannot be uttered.
DHK
So it is with tongues. It had to be for the edification of the entire church. It was not for prayer or singing.
