What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

[Charlie24]

Afraid not, my friend!

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, that's what saved them and forgave sins.

The same goes for Acts 2:38, it was the repentance that saved them, then they were baptized.

When they repented, that is when the spiritual baptism took place, Colossians 2.

The water baptism was the physical baptism, the symbol of what took place spiritually.

 

[ChristB4Us]

For everyone to know why John of Japan claimed I was calling him an apostate was his response to what I was talking about here.

I know that some believers misapply Ephesians 5:18 as if exhorting believes to avoid getting drunk but instead seek a filling of the Holy Spirit but that is actually an apostate calling that ignores the warning in 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 when Ephesians 5:18 is just exhorting believers to say sober, as be filled with the Holy Ghost or remained filled with the Holy Spirit rather than getting drunk with wine.

Then in his post #49 he replied to that quoted comment as "You just called me an apostate."

That was him putting that shoe on himself as he identified himself with that false teaching.

So like it or not, John of Japan is drinking the Pentecostal's & Charismatic's Kool Aid whether he acknowledges this or not.

 

[37818]

So like it or not, John of Japan is drinking the Pentecostal's & Charismatic's Kool Aid whether he acknowledges this or not.

I do not think you understand what you think you do. You can correct me. There are at least three interpretations of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. And at least two interpretations of when believers began receiving the Holy Spirit as the promised Comforter.

 

[37818]

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, that's what saved them and forgave sins.

The same goes for Acts 2:38, it was the repentance that saved them, then they were baptized.

Neither.

Acts of the Apostles 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. [The name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.]

 

[ChristB4Us]

I do not think you understand what you think you do. You can correct me. There are at least three interpretations of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. And at least two interpretations of when believers began receiving the Holy Spirit as the promised Comforter.

More than likely, you are referring to false teachings by Pentecostals & Charismatics that apply certain events in the Book of Acts as if saved believers are receiving the Holy Spirit more than once and it has filtered its way into the Baptist churches.

I am aware of the misapplication of scriptures, but I prefer that you show me which reference you are believing as if a saved believer can receive the Holy Spirit more than once.

FYI, John 14:25-26 is Jesus saying when the Comforter will come and that is when He is no longer present with them and so those 2 incidences that His disciples had received the holy Spirit, this was temporary per Matthew 10th chapter & John 20:22 since Jesus gave them that temporary infilling of the Holy Ghost.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So His remaining disciples were not officially saved as in born again of the Spirit until Pentecost.

But feel free to share any scriptures that has led you to believe otherwise, and God be willing, I shall get back to you or He will show you the truth ahead of time.

 

[37818]

More than likely, you are referring to false teachings by Pentecostals & Charismatics that apply certain events in the Book of Acts as if saved believers are receiving the Holy Spirit more than once and it has filtered its way into the Baptist churches.

No. Orthodox believers all agree the receiving the Holy Spirit is once at salvation. The disagreement is over the role the baptism with Holy Spirit has. There are at least four views on that.

 

[37818]

. . . 2 incidences that His disciples had received the holy Spirit, this was temporary per . . .

You have an interpretation I have never read about. Do you have a Bible teacher you can source for us on this view?

A major Baptist view, (I personally differ on,) The Power of Pentecost by John R. Rice. An important work and view point to know and understand.

 

[37818]

There are specific teachings regarding the Holy Spirit agreed on and disagreed on. They need to be addressed separately.

 

[37818]

Not temporary, John 14:16, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 

[ChristB4Us]

No. Orthodox believers all agree the receiving the Holy Spirit is once at salvation. The disagreement is over the role the baptism with Holy Spirit has. There are at least four views on that.

Since the role of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is performed by the Father & Jesus from Heaven for whenever anyone comes to & believe in Jesus Christ, there should be no four views on what that role is about the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The role of the Holy Spirit can have different applications, but not role regarding the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Not temporary, John 14:16, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

You misunderstood me. That reference is for when Jesus has ascended to the Father per John 14:1-3 for when the Father and Jesus send the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost per John 14:16-17 & John 14:25-26.

The temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost is referenced in Matthew 10th chapter and John 20:22 because Jesus was with them at that time.

 

[37818]

. . . and John 20:22 because Jesus was with them at that time.

The difficulty is different understands of texts. I know of two interpretations of John 20:22. And you, it seems, have presented a third. In any of these, now three views, goes with Acts of the Apostles 1:2, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: . . .
I have little doubt you believe the same Scriptures I do.

You nevertheless seem to present another or third view.

 

[John of Japan]

For everyone to know why John of Japan claimed I was calling him an apostate was his response to what I was talking about here.

You're back to this? This is bizarre.

I know that some believers misapply Ephesians 5:18 as if exhorting believes to avoid getting drunk but instead seek a filling of the Holy Spirit but that is actually an apostate calling that ignores the warning in 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 when Ephesians 5:18 is just exhorting believers to say sober, as be filled with the Holy Ghost or remained filled with the Holy Spirit rather than getting drunk with wine.

Ephesians 5:18 contains a Greek imperative present passive, πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι. Since it is an an imperative (a Greek command), it is a mandate. Since it is present tense, then it is imperfective aspect. It can thus be translated, "Be continually filled with the Spirit." Since it is an imperative, a command, you are telling people to disobey the Bible when you say it is not.

What you should be saying is, if it is a command, what does it mean? It doesn't mean tongues, it means power to serve God. This is not a Charismatic doctrine. I defy you to find a single Charismatic source which says, "The sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit is not tongues, but service to God, winning souls." They don't believe what I do.

All of the evangelical, non-Charismatic commentaries I have agree with this. "Instead of continuing in drunkenness, they are to go on being filled with the Spirit" (Skevington Wood in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 11, p. 72)

"But be filled with the Spirit (alla plerousthe en pneumati). In contrast to a state of intoxication with wine." (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the NT, accessed through Power Bible). Robertson, of course, is pre-Charismatic, and so could not possibly be touting Charismatic pneumatology.

I could give others.

Then in his post #49 he replied to that quoted comment as "You just called me an apostate."

That was him putting that shoe on himself as he identified himself with that false teaching.

You called my interpretation apostate, therefore you called me apostate. Simple.

So like it or not, John of Japan is drinking the Pentecostal's & Charismatic's Kool Aid whether he acknowledges this or not.

Once again, you are disobeying the Bible, which says not to bear false witness. I have fought the Charismatic movement my whole ministry. Three times Charismatics attacked churches I was starting in Japan. I wrote a book against tongues in Japanese. I oppose: "health and wealth," tongues, the Charismatic view of healing, the "manifest sons of God" teaching, Charismatic ecumenism, and whatever else they come up with.

So this is a vicious attack. Not only that, is ignorant, since you appear to know nothing of the great non-Charismatic preachers and theologians on pneumatology: R. A. Torrey, D. L. Moody, Charles Finney, John R. Rice, and many other great preachers and theologians. These men are where I got my pneumatology, not from any Charismatic. In fact, they all ministered before the Charismatic movement existed.

One of the courses I teach as a Bible college and seminary prof is "Survey of Church History." In the perhaps forlorn hope that you will read it and be educated, I will attach my lecture notes on the history of the Charismatic movement to this post.

 

[ChristB4Us]

The difficulty is different understands of texts. I know of two interpretations of John 20:22. And you, it seems, have presented a third. In any of these, now three views, goes with Acts of the Apostles 1:2, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: . . .
I have little doubt you believe the same Scriptures I do.

You nevertheless seem to present another or third view.

But what exactly are you saying about the different views regarding the "role" of the baptism with the Holy Ghost?

Let us consider the first incident of Jesus giving power , yes, the Holy Ghost, to His12 disciples, including Judas Iscariot, in Matthew 10th chapter and yet Judas Iscariot was considered by prophesy to be lost.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Under the Old Covenant, it was possible for Old Testament saints to lose the Holy Ghost.

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

And since Jesus has not ascended yet for when Judas Iscariot had killed himself, indeed, He was not even crucified and risen yet, then the Holy Spirit was taken from him and he was lost as prophesied.

So I am applying from scriptures that the Holy Ghost Jesus had given while He was yet present with them, was temporary until He had ascended to the Father to prepare the way for us whereby afterwards, hence Pentecost, citizens of Heaven were being born again on earth as the time of Pentecost was when His remaining disciples were officially saved as in born again of the Spirit.

John 20:22 is an event where Jesus was still with them when He gave again that temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost because the permanent one was not to be sent until He was no longer present with them per John 14:25-26.

Did you recall that Thomas was not with them at that time? And yet there is no written incident of Jesus giving Thomas that same temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost, even after seeing Jesus and touching His wounds for when Thomas declared Jesus His Lord & His God. Not saying that it did not happen but for our edification and knowledge, it was entirely left out as that was not important, but the one at Pentecost was.

Then you look at Jesus earlier conversation with Nicodemus as to when and how the born again of the Spirit was to occur.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus described the time for when & how the born again of the Spirit was to take place and that was to be after His ascension per verse 13 which is after His crucifixion, per verse 14, for whenever anyone believes in Jesus Christ per verses 15-16.

I believe I am holding to the Biblical view of what that role of the Baptism of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost is to come and so I do not know what other two views you have in regards to that "role" of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

 

[ChristB4Us]

You're back to this? This is bizarre.

Ephesians 5:18 contains a Greek imperative present passive, πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι. Since it is an an imperative (a Greek command), it is a mandate. Since it is present tense, then it is imperfective aspect. It can thus be translated, "Be continually filled with the Spirit." Since it is an imperative, a command, you are telling people to disobey the Bible when you say it is not.

Present tense to stay sober, thus remaining filled with all the fruit of the Holy Spirit like temperance which is self control.

What you should be saying is, if it is a command, what does it mean? It doesn't mean tongues, it means power to serve God. This is not a Charismatic doctrine. I defy you to find a single Charismatic source which says, "The sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit is not tongues, but service to God, winning souls." They don't believe what I do.

Now you are adding to scriptures for what you say the "continual" filling of the Holy Spirit is for and not just presenting it as if it was a command for believers to seek a filling of the Holy Spirit rather than be sober by not getting drunk, but in order to win souls.

Here is a reference to that temporary infilling of the Holy Ghost that even Judas Iscariot had received, but lost.

Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Now consider His instructions to those that had that temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost back then.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

I see no instructions about seek a filling of the Holy Ghost so you can speak boldly and evangelize. Do you?

But I can guess where you got the line of false thinking from and that is Acts 4th chapter that Pentecostals & Charismatics also misapply as if Peter & John got filled with the Holy Ghost again.

Peter & John got arrested before those potential believers got saved as in born again of the Spirit. Think of it as salvation interrupted. When Peter & John were released into their own company, it was those potential believers as they heard what had happened to Peter & John and so they prayed that they would be bold like Peter & John in preaching Jesus Christ also.

Peter & John do not need to be the recipients of that prayer when this was the prayer from the potential believers praying that they would speak boldly like Peter & John. They got their answer at their born again of the Spirit moment of salvation.

And you can lean on Jesus for help to see that they were THEN a new community of believers by what they did afterwards in selling everything they had and laying it at the apostle's feet to distribute evenly among that new community of believers.

The Pentecostals & Charismatics tried to use that reference as if it was another example of Peter & John being filled with the Holy Ghost so they could sucker believers into seeking that filling of the Spirit so they could preach the gospel, and yet there were no other new believers when this had occurred. They all spoke with one accord and so there can be no other convert, right? There is no report of any adding to their numbers if there was anyone outside of that company of potential believers that Peter & John got arrested & taken away from.

Anyway, YOU do not need a phenomenon to speak boldly or to type online in serving Him. I am sure if you think about what it is you are saying, then that means you have to seek a filling before every time you sit down at your computer before typing anything or speaking to anyone, and that is not true. You know it is not true and so why promote that phenomenon of a filling of the Holy Spirit as if any saved believer that thinks about going into the ministry, that they have to have that filling phenomenon before they do?

All of the evangelical, non-Charismatic commentaries I have agree with this. "Instead of continuing in drunkenness, they are to go on being filled with the Spirit" (Skevington Wood in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 11, p. 72)

"But be filled with the Spirit (alla plerousthe en pneumati). In contrast to a state of intoxication with wine." (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the NT, accessed through Power Bible). Robertson, of course, is pre-Charismatic, and so could not possibly be touting Charismatic pneumatology.

I could give others.

Alberto Rivera, a former Jesuit, testified of the secret oath to the Jesuit General at the Vatican to sow discord in society to cause society to collapse and to infiltrate the Protestant churches to bring them back into the fold of the RCC.

I do not see any hindrance of doing the same to the Baptist churches.

So what are you doing here? Referring to commentaries rather than Jesus at that throne of grace for wisdom in His words? Are we not to prove all things by His words, including commentaries rather than commentaries to prove His words?

To be continued......

 

[ChristB4Us]

Continued from post # 136

You called my interpretation apostate, therefore you called me apostate. Simple.

Initially, you did not present your interpretation as I was touching on it from which you had applied that I had just called you an apostate. If the shoe fits, you put that show on yourself, and rightly so. You have been deceived in seeking that phenomenon of a filling of the Holy Spirit to serve as a 'sign" that God is calling you into the ministry and only Jesus can help you see that you never needed that extra filling nor any sign to do that.

Look at how Paul spoke in the ministry...

1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Now for how you apply that filling of the Holy Spirit for... where is it in Paul in weakness, fear, and much trembling? You see any boldness to preach? Would you call Paul a false apostle by your use of Ephesians 5:18?

So that should blow away all false notions of those who are scared or believe they do not have that boldness to preach the gospel to others as if they need a filling of the Holy Spirit to do that. And it should expose that supernatural phenomenon of the filling of the Holy Spirit that you seem to imply as experiencing yourself as standing apart from the truth; hence apostasy.

Once again, you are disobeying the Bible, which says not to bear false witness. I have fought the Charismatic movement my whole ministry. Three times Charismatics attacked churches I was starting in Japan. I wrote a book against tongues in Japanese. I oppose: "health and wealth," tongues, the Charismatic view of healing, the "manifest sons of God" teaching, Charismatic ecumenism, and whatever else they come up with.

So this is a vicious attack. Not only that, is ignorant, since you appear to know nothing of the great non-Charismatic preachers and theologians on pneumatology: R. A. Torrey, D. L. Moody, Charles Finney, John R. Rice, and many other great preachers and theologians. These men are where I got my pneumatology, not from any Charismatic. In fact, they all ministered before the Charismatic movement existed.

Joyce Meyers had experienced feeling the Holy Ghost coming over her and she began to speak in tongues. She claimed that phenomenon was God calling her into the ministry. The only reason she said that was because she had been a saved believer before that moment.

A former neighbor across the street testified that she was at her kitchen table reading the Bible when she felt the Holy Spirit coming over her and she spoke in tongues and then declared that that was she was saved because she got the Holy Ghost and tongues right then. I had asked her what she was reading in her Bible that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. At first she did not know what I was meaning but then she went on to explain how she spoke to her pastor at Lakeside regarding the incident because she had been a believer all of her life & her pastor pointed to the Book of Acts. ( I can only assume Acts 2 for when His disciples were sitting around waiting for the promise at Pentecost ) Then she went on to explain other church members sharing similar experiences from which she rolled her eyes at and yet did not explain why she did not believe their accounts. In our continued conversation, from which I had queried, she said she did not believe you have to speak in tongues to know you have the Holy Ghost to be saved, but yet I told her that she would have a hard time convincing those that say that, from using her changed testimony for which she declared as when she was actually saved.

Anyway, the same phenomenon Joyce Meyers had is the same phenomenon my former neighbor across the street had and they are both wrong. They want that phenomenon to be of God and so they are ignoring John's warning in the scriptures to not believe every spirit but test them per 1 John 4:1 and that test is knowing He is in you since you had first believed at the calling of the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2;13-15 so that when you feel a spirt coming over you later in life as a saved believer, you can know that is NOT the real indwelling Holy Spirit per 1 John 4:4

One of the courses I teach as a Bible college and seminary prof is "Survey of Church History." In thew perhaps forlorn hope that you will read it and be educated, I will attach my lecture notes on the history of the Charismatic movement to this post.

Well then, pride may very well keep you from receiving reproofs in His words from Jesus Christ, but God can do the impossible. I know I cannot convince you. It is not in my power to convince you as it is on God to cause the increase.

You are still my brother, however you have been led astray not only by false teachings and the misapplication of His words but by an implied phenomenon which you seem to infer to have experienced as calling you into the ministry. Whether you like it or not, you are endorsing that phenomenon and preaching an apostasy as a result.

 

[ChristB4Us]

@John of Japan

The Battle of Principality Over Ephesians 5:18

Scripture cannot go against scripture and that is the only way to find the truth in His words with His help, in rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[John of Japan]

Continued from post # 136

You have been deceived in seeking that phenomenon of a filling of the Holy Spirit to serve as a 'sign" that God is calling you into the ministry and only Jesus can help you see that you never needed that extra filling nor any sign to do that.

This is a totally wrong. I'm done with you. I will not interact with you anymore, and am putting you on ignore. You keep lying about me. I DO NOT see the filling of the Holy Spirit as a "sign" that God is calling me into the ministry. I NEVER SAID that, and don't believe it, and you are dishonest to say that I did.

It's not worth the effort to debate someone who continually prevaricates about me.

 

[37818]

@ChristB4Us,
John 20:22 is a post resurrection pre ascension event. It is generally believed Jesus breaths the Holy Spirit on His Apostles.
The three views.
1) The eternal giving of the Comforter to His church.
2) For the command to receive the Comforter which occurs on Pentecost.
3) A temporary giving of the Holy Spirit . . .(Please explain . . .)

 

[ChristB4Us]

This is a totally wrong. I'm done with you. I will not interact with you anymore, and am putting you on ignore. You keep lying about me. I DO NOT see the filling of the Holy Spirit as a "sign" that God is calling me into the ministry. I NEVER SAID that, and don't believe it, and you are dishonest to say that I did.

It's not worth the effort to debate someone who continually prevaricates about me.

Then the way you "prevaricate", has you speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

You claim you never said that and yet you proclaim it by referring to that filling of the Holy Spirit as some sign for preaching boldly the gospel for what you seem to base your calling into the ministry by without actually referring to it directly.

So how can you know you had a filling of the Holy Spirit that you claim is God calling you into the ministry unless you felt a spirit coming over you later in life as a saved believer? It has to be a notable phenomenon like Joyce Meyers and my former neighbor across the street only they had this sensation of that "filling" as coming with tongues, whereas yours, which is implied, did not.

And yet you seem to think there is necessity for this filling of the Holy Spirit to boldly preach the gospel hence in order to go into the ministry.

If it be your desire to serve the Lord Jesus Christ rather than your pride and all your work based on that pride, you would seek to clarify your position or for Him to use you to minister to me, but instead, you just throw out accusations without quoting me whereas I have been quoting you from which you "prevaricated" enough for me to post as I did.

You also seem to think apostate means they were never saved nor of the faith in Jesus Christ which you are wrong also because you cannot be cut off from the vine, unless you were part of the vine by faith in Jesus Christ. You cannot fall away from the faith unless you were of the faith. You cannot void faith by engaging foolishly the deeds of the law unless you had faith to void it to begin with. So just because you are involved in a false teaching(s) which speaks the same words and language as those in apostasy, it does not mean you were never saved OR that you never had faith to begin with as you seem to believe apostate means.

It just means you are at risk of being excommunicated from the Marriage Supper even though you are still part of that kingdom of Heaven if you will note how the 5 foolish virgins were of the ten that ARE the kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 25:1 but He knew them not Matthew 25:12 ( and it was because they were being in iniquity of being out to the market seeking to be filled with extra oil ) when you compare about Him not knowing them with workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:21-23 & Luke 13:24-30.

Since the 5 that were ready for why they were not out to the market to seek to be filled with extra oil, as they were filled since salvation for why they were in that kingdom of Heaven in the first place, then the foolish being out to the market seeking extra oil in a work that denies Him for how they are in that kingdom of Heaven is why and how He did not know them, even though they were still in that kingdom of Heaven but missed out on the Wedding Reception with the Bridegroom.

So yeah... by the grace of God and His help, I oppose applying Ephesians 5:18 as if that is a command to seek a continual filling of the Holy Spirit when that is just an exhortation to stay sober as be filled with the Holy Spirit by avoiding getting drunk with wine with excess.