What innate Divine attribute did Christ set aside at the incarnation?

[atpollard]

This bunny trail came up in another topic:

That's the argument of the JWs to prove Jesus is not God

We hold that God can willingly set aside His own attributes, even be set a little lower than the angels for a time, without denying His own sovereignty or contradicting His nature as He so pleases. God is no less God if He can and yet sovereignly chooses not to do what He very well can. God is omniscient and yet He is no less God if He sovereignly chooses not to exercise it according to His own purposes - or else how can one explain Mar 13:32?

So I thought I would take a stand (probably an incorrect one), but I am prepared to defend the premise that Jesus Christ was still Fully God at his incarnation and had all of his innate Divine Attributes (Omniscience, Perfect Love, etc.).

So what attribute of God do you think Jesus did not have while "in the flesh"?

[Let's see where this leads.]

 

[ivdavid]

So what attribute of God do you think Jesus did not have while "in the flesh"?

I'm not jumping in whole into this discussion just yet - but as a clarification on semantics, I'd say Jesus did not lack any of His own attributes as God - He merely chose not to manifest them at different times of His choosing while in the flesh.

 

[JonC]

I'd say everything not man. Jesus became like us but without sin. I view the miracles as a testimony of the Father through the Spirit and Christ doing nothing of his accord but doing the will of the Father.

I like the blindfold illustration.

A man wanted to identify with the struggles of his daughter who had recently lost her sight. So he blindfolded himself for a day to live in her world. The man set aside his sight and relied completely on his wife to guide him.

 

[Yeshua1]

This bunny trail came up in another topic:



So I thought I would take a stand (probably an incorrect one), but I am prepared to defend the premise that Jesus Christ was still Fully God at his incarnation and had all of his innate Divine Attributes (Omniscience, Perfect Love, etc.).

So what attribute of God do you think Jesus did not have while "in the flesh"?

[Let's see where this leads.]

None of them, as he was indeed still fully God, but he chose to lay aside His divine right to use all of his attributes....

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not jumping in whole into this discussion just yet - but as a clarification on semantics, I'd say Jesus did not lack any of His own attributes as God - He merely chose not to manifest them at different times of His choosing while in the flesh.

Classic kenosis theology holds that Jesus left behind in heaven something of his deity while here on earth, you do not hold to that, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'd say everything not man. Jesus became like us but without sin. I view the miracles as a testimony of the Father through the Spirit and Christ doing nothing of his accord but doing the will of the Father.

I like the blindfold illustration.

A man wanted to identify with the struggles of his daughter who had recently lost her sight. So he blindfolded himself for a day to live in her world. The man set aside his sight and relied completely on his wife to guide him.

He was and is sinless in his humanity, bornn that way, while you and I were born with sin natures, so how could he be"just like us?"

 

[JonC]

He was and is sinless in his humanity, bornn that way, while you and I were born with sin natures, so how could he be"just like us?"

I don't know how. I just know the Bible says he was but without sin. That's enough for me (I try to stay in my pay grade and out of God's lane).

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know how. I just know the Bible says he was but without sin. That's enough for me (I try to stay in my pay grade and out of God's lane).

He needed to come via the Virgin birth to bypass the effects of the Fall, correct?

 

[JonC]

He needed to come via the Virgin birth to bypass the effects of the Fall, correct?

I do not believe so (I do not believe sin is passed down genetically).

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not believe so (I do not believe sin is passed down genetically).

Its not a genetic thing, more of a federal headship thing, as God cursed all who were in Adam to become as he now was n the fall, to suffer both spiritual and physical death, and Jesus would have been born a sinner and unable to be messiah without Virgin Birth!

 

[JonC]

Its not a genetic thing, more of a federal headship thing, as God cursed all who were in Adam to become as he now was n the fall, to suffer both spiritual and physical death, and Jesus would have been born a sinner and unable to be messiah without Virgin Birth!

If it is a headship thing you have a problem with your explanation of the virgin birth. Christ calls Himself "Son of Man" for a reason. Also, headship would not demand a virgin birth (women are also "of Adam". You are specifically referring to human reproduction.

 

[Yeshua1]

If it is a headship thing you have a problem with your explanation of the virgin birth. Christ calls Himself "Son of Man" for a reason. Also, headship would not demand a virgin birth (women are also "of Adam". You are specifically referring to human reproduction.

he is Son of man as the One of Daniel prophesy, but he also would have been born as a sinner if No Virgin birth. Do you hold to his Virgin Birth?

 

[37818]

This bunny trail came up in another topic:



So I thought I would take a stand (probably an incorrect one), but I am prepared to defend the premise that Jesus Christ was still Fully God at his incarnation and had all of his innate Divine Attributes (Omniscience, Perfect Love, etc.).

So what attribute of God do you think Jesus did not have while "in the flesh"?

[Let's see where this leads.]

I hold He did not set aside His full deity when He fully became man. Where I differ is as the eternal Son He deliberately limited omniscience in some things as sole creator on behalf the the Father. So is an explanation against the so called open theism. Genesis 22:12 and Mark 13:32 - Acts of the Apostles 1:7 as examples of the Son's deliberately limiting Himself.

 

[atpollard]

he chose to lay aside His divine right to use all of his attributes

Do you have a verse for that?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have a verse for that?

John 6:38

 

[37818]

John 6:38

Refers to Him being incarnate. Does not negate Him from, ". . . upholding all things by the word of his power, . . ." Even when, ". . . he had by himself purged our sins . . . ." -- Hebrews 1:3, TSA.

John 1:9-10: Hebrews 1:2-3.

 

[tyndale1946]

Refers to Him being incarnate. Does not negate Him from, ". . . upholding all things by the word of his power, . . ." Even when, ". . . he had by himself purged our sins . . . ." -- Hebrews 1:3, TSA.

John 1:9-10: Hebrews 1:2-3.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Brother Glen

 

[atpollard]

Since most of this has been fairly general comments, I wanted to try and look at something more specific:

• [John 1:43-51 NIV] 43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me." 44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46 "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked. "Come and see," said Philip. 47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit." 48 "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you." 49 Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel." 50 Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that." 51 He then added, "Very truly I tell you, you will see 'heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on' the Son of Man."

Jesus demonstrated omnipresence.
Jesus was PHYSICALLY in one location and claimed to see what was happening in another location.

• I saw ... Jesus did not indicate that he merely KNEW of the events transpiring elsewhere, but claimed to personally see them.
• Jesus did not indicate that “My Father has revealed”, but clearly states that Jesus himself is the source of this knowledge.
• Jesus does not credit the Holy Spirit with revealing this to him, but claims himself as the source.
• Jesus does not claim to have had a vision, but simply states that Jesus saw it.
• The implication appears to be that Jesus was both HERE and THERE at the same time. That suggests Jesus retained his Divine Omnipresence even as he existed in a human body.

My conclusion is that Jesus demonstrated that he retained the Divine attribute of OMNIPRESENCE even while in human form.

 

[37818]

Since most of this has been fairly general comments, I wanted to try and look at something more specific:

• [John 1:43-51 NIV] 43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me." 44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46 "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked. "Come and see," said Philip. 47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit." 48 "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you." 49 Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel." 50 Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that." 51 He then added, "Very truly I tell you, you will see 'heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on' the Son of Man."

Jesus demonstrated omnipresence.
Jesus was PHYSICALLY in one location and claimed to see what was happening in another location.

• I saw ... Jesus did not indicate that he merely KNEW of the events transpiring elsewhere, but claimed to personally see them.
• Jesus did not indicate that “My Father has revealed”, but clearly states that Jesus himself is the source of this knowledge.
• Jesus does not credit the Holy Spirit with revealing this to him, but claims himself as the source.
• Jesus does not claim to have had a vision, but simply states that Jesus saw it.
• The implication appears to be that Jesus was both HERE and THERE at the same time. That suggests Jesus retained his Divine Omnipresence even as he existed in a human body.

My conclusion is that Jesus demonstrated that he retained the Divine attribute of OMNIPRESENCE even while in human form.

John 3:13, ". . . And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. . . ."
1 Corinthians 8:6, ". . . Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, . . ."
Hebrews 1:3, ". . . upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ."

 

[atpollard]

None of them, as he was indeed still fully God, but he chose to lay aside His divine right to use all of his attributes....

Do you have a verse for that?

John 6:38

In context ...

[John 6:35-40 NASB] 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

How does that verse indicate that Jesus "lay aside His divine right to use all of his attributes"?



As an aside, the next two verses state the will of "Him who sent me" ...

1. of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day
2. everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

... so, is that not also the will of God the Son?