What is a scriptural choice regarding Salvation

[JesusFan]

So you've just confirmed that the elect and non-elect have no choice in the matter.

Nope...

just saying that ALL of us died in our sinful natures in a spiritual sense before the Lord, and unless he directly intervened, NONE of us would get saved!

that is why when the HS quickens us to life, we have the "natural" desire/bent to palce faith in Christ and get saved, while the rest stay as sinners and have theur 'natural" desires to run fom the Cross and salvation...


remember that the Lord 'causes/determines" the salvation of His elected in Christ to receive eternal life, but the remainder are NOT determined by god to be lost, that is their natural state, as they will refuse the Gospel because of being "just the way they are!"

 

[JesusFan]

He won't answer with scripture, he'll just spout more Calvinist doctrine followed by an exclamation point!

JF seems to believe if you repeat a falsehood long enough, somehow it becomes truth!

And yes, my exclamation points here are intentional![/QUOTE

]


Guess the Apostle paul 'does not count" , eh?

he made itquite clear in BOTh Ephesians and Romans that the Lord has foreknown/predestined/chosen us to be "In Christ" and that process was done By Him, to be directed towards the objects of His love and salvation, us..

the Apostle states that this salvation/grace was iniated by God towards us on an individual basis, and thatGod "knew" us in a opersonal fashion/directly, as he was the One who saved and redemned us by the Cross!

 

[Benjamin]

This is a tragic view....sorry to hear of it.You repeat this idea which is a clear falsehood....

It isn't me that willfully twists and mis-interprets scripture at all costs including attributing evil to God all to support a false systematic doctrine. Clearly God is Only Good, Just and this while His work is perfect; He doesn't predestine some to be evil for all His ways are righteous judgment:

(Deu 32:4)He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


BTW Icon, you should be more careful about quoting scripture in an accusatory manner at others while you hold to such a tragic doctrine, especially when it refers to you condemning yourself through your own words.

 

[Winman]

]


Guess the Apostle paul 'does not count" , eh?

he made itquite clear in BOTh Ephesians and Romans that the Lord has foreknown/predestined/chosen us to be "In Christ" and that process was done By Him, to be directed towards the objects of His love and salvation, us..

the Apostle states that this salvation/grace was iniated by God towards us on an individual basis, and thatGod "knew" us in a opersonal fashion/directly, as he was the One who saved and redemned us by the Cross!

False. The scriptures do not say God has chosen us "TO BE" in Christ. You add the words "TO BE" to God's word. No, the scriptures say we are chosen "in him" (Christ).

No person is "in Christ" until he believes. This is shown in Rom 16:7, where Paul says Andronicus and Junia were in Christ "before me".

So then, how could we be chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world? According to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet 1:2). Although Paul was not in Christ until he believed in time AFTER Andronicus and Junia, God the Father could foresee Paul's future faith and position "in Christ" and chose or elected him before the foundation of the world.

Election is founded or based upon God the Father's foreknowledge. It is based upon some factor that he foresaw and foreknew before it actually happened. That is the very definition of foreknowledge.

Many deny God foresaw faith, but this is impossible, as faith is the determining cause that places one in Christ. If God foresaw those "in Christ" and chose or elected them, it is impossible that he did not see their faith, as you cannot be in Christ without faith.

But that is exactly what your doctrine denies, you teach men were chosen TO BE in Christ before they even existed and could place faith in Christ.

 

[Van]

God elects individuals during their lives, after they have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

God elects individuals during the lives through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

God elects individuals during their lives as rich in faith and heirs to the promise God made to those who love Him, James 2:5.

Individuals have a choice as to whether to trust in God and His Christ, but choosing to trust does not save them. It is God alone who credits their faith as righteousness, or not, Matthew 13, and puts them spiritually in Christ. Romans 4:4-5. Our faith provides our access to God's saving grace. Romans 5:1-2.

 

[Van]

Forseen faith has no basis in scripture. Rather, Ephesians 1:4 addresses corporate election, in that the redeemed, whoever they would turn out to be, were chosen corporately when God chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you have a plan to redeem. To say it was an individual election before creation, then you must nullify all the verses that teach our individual election occurs during our lifetime. That dog will not hunt.

 

[Winman]

Forseen faith has no basis in scripture. Rather, Ephesians 1:4 addresses corporate election, in that the redeemed, whoever they would turn out to be, were chosen corporately when God chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you have a plan to redeem. To say it was an individual election before creation, then you must nullify all the verses that teach our individual election occurs during our lifetime. That dog will not hunt.

Van, I know what you mean by corporate election and agree, but I believe scripture also shows God can foresee our choice to trust Christ as individuals.

I agree we are chosen in time when we believe. You cannot be elect unless you believe. Nevertheless, God can see those person's faith before they exist and trust Christ, and can elect them.

So, my view is not like Calvinism whatsoever. They believe a person is chosen TO BE in Christ as JF wrote. This is error, this is saying we are chosen OUTSIDE Christ.

But that foreseen faith is shown, we see Jeremiah, we see the original apostles except Judas who was a devil. Well, if Jesus knew Judas was a devil, then he also knew the other eleven were not. Jesus chose his apostles because he knew they would believe, he chose Judas because he knew he would not, and would fulfill prophecy by betraying him.

 

[Van]

First scripture says all things are possible with God, so anyone can say God can do this or that, and say scripture shows God has this or that capacity. I can say God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars and hide in the same tall grass you are standing in.

Second, why would God elect people for salvation twice, once based on supposed foreseen faith, and once based on actual faith. The simplist answer is that Ephesians 1:4 addresses the blessing of being chosen corporately when Christ was chosen, hence He chose us [corporately] in Him before the foundation of the world.

Third, God does choose some individuals "from the womb" to be His prophets. But that does not suggest He foresaw they would be prophets, but only He chose them and caused them to become prophets. Also note this election was during their lifetime and was not for salvation under the new covenant.

Lastly, Jesus knew all about those He dealt with, whether Judas or Peter. He said of folks in another town, they would have repented if they had seen His miracles. But being able to read the minds and know the motives of existent individuals does not provide support that God did something not said in scripture. Anyone can make stuff up and attribute it to God, i.e. invisible pink elephants, but we should only teach what scripture actually says, or what by logical necessity, the least that can be inferred, such as the Trinity.

Arminianism, whether classical (i.e. foreseen faith based individual election) or the modern view where God simply elected the church corporately and then we put ourselves into the group or out of the group based on our actions, both views are not biblical. In the first case you have people chosen as individuals (hence elect) who are vessels of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) and yet elect. This violates Romans 8:33 because no charge can be brought against the elect. It just does not hang together as you consider all the verses that apply to election for salvation.

Final thought, while unbiblical, Arminianism comes closer to biblical truth than Calvinism. The Calvinist view of God is that He compels us to love Him via Irresistible Grace, but as Paul taught, love does not demand its own way. In the dark ages, folks who thought compulsion was godly, used government force to compel people to believe, or say they did, as the church leaders believed. Today, many Muslims think God wants infidels to adopt their view or die. But I believe the God of compulsion is a lie of Satan.

 

[Winman]

Van, I am not pulling ideas out of thin air and you know it. Jesus said, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Now, a person might argue this is speaking of service and not salvation, nevertheless it shows Jesus knew who would believe and follow him, and who would believe not and betray him. This is stated directly in Jn 6:64.

An example (I believe) of foreknowledge is Nathanael.

Jn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knoweth thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou was under the fig tree, I saw thee
49 Nathanael answered and said unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Look at this carefully. Jesus saw Nathanael coming. Compare to Luk 15:20.

Jesus called Nathanael a true Israelite. Compare to Rom 9:6-8.

Nathanael asked how Jesus KNEW him. Compare to Rom 8:29.

Jesus answered, BEFORE he was CALLED, Jesus SAW HIM. Compare to Rom 8:30.

Now (in time) Nathanael believes. Again, see Rom 8:30, whom he called, them he also justified.

Calvinists are not wrong in saying people are chosen or elect, it is scriptural. Where they err is saying it is unconditional. Election is conditioned on faith.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, the drive-by poster here.

I understand why election is conditional if it is based on foreseen faith. I don't agree, but each is consistent with the other.

What I don't understand is why there is election in the first place. Why did God need to elect me if he foresaw my saving faith? If my faith resulted in my election, why is that not electing myself?

Now, it is true that God saves in response to repentance and faith. But election is not salvation. They are two different things. And yes, the Bible teaches election.

I'm looking for the reason God needs to be involved in my election if it's based on foreseen faith.

 

[JesusFan]

Tom, the drive-by poster here.

I understand why election is conditional if it is based on foreseen faith. I don't agree, but each is consistent with the other.

What I don't understand is why there is election in the first place. Why did God need to elect me if he foresaw my saving faith? If my faith resulted in my election, why is that not electing myself?

Now, it is true that God saves in response to repentance and faith. But election is not salvation. They are two different things. And yes, the Bible teaches election.

I'm looking for the reason God needs to be involved in my election if it's based on foreseen faith.

You just answered yopur own question!
IF election is based upon your personal response by faith to Christ, than you have been the agent placing yourself into the "corporate" election that some here hold to and teach!

As such, God would be allowing us to 'freely" decide our own eternal destiny!

ironic....

God letting sinners who will chose not to accept jesus to decide for themselves wether heaven or hell!

 

[Skandelon]

Can the elect choose to reject Christ?

Of course they can. That is what Paul shows in Romans 9. "Not all Israel (the elect) are Israel" (in covenant with God).

The elect are those God has chosen to recieve his special revelation, by which they can enter covenant with God. This is represented by Paul as those "grafted into the tree" in Romans 11. Those elected are those grafted in and thus seeing, hearing and responding to the revelation from God by which they may be saved. The gospel goes first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

There is also the matter of God electing or appointed particular individuals as messengers of his Gospel, which is often used to confuse the clear biblical teaching of salvation through a faith response to that message.

 

[Winman]

Tom, the drive-by poster here.

I understand why election is conditional if it is based on foreseen faith. I don't agree, but each is consistent with the other.

What I don't understand is why there is election in the first place. Why did God need to elect me if he foresaw my saving faith? If my faith resulted in my election, why is that not electing myself?

Now, it is true that God saves in response to repentance and faith. But election is not salvation. They are two different things. And yes, the Bible teaches election.

I'm looking for the reason God needs to be involved in my election if it's based on foreseen faith.

I believe we are chosen to be witnesses. See Acts 1:2, Jesus gave commands to the apostles he had chosen. In vs. 8 we see the command, that they should be witnesses in Jerusalem, all Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth. Next, in vss. 15-26 we see they had to be a witness of the resurrection (vs. 22). Now see Acts 9:15, 10:41, 22:14-15.

We are chosen to be witnesses.

In 1 Cor 1:27-29 we see another purpose, God hath chosen the foolish to confound the wise, the weak to confound the mighty, those that are base, despised, and not to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence.

There is more:

Chosen to be holy and without blame (Eph 1:4)
Chosen to salvation (2 Thes 2:13)
Chosen to be a soldier (2 Tim 2:4)
Chosen to show forth his praises (1 Pet 2:9)

 

[Van]

Reply to Winman

Van, I am not pulling ideas out of thin air and you know it. Jesus said, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Now, a person might argue this is speaking of service and not salvation, nevertheless it shows Jesus knew who would believe and follow him, and who would believe not and betray him. This is stated directly in Jn 6:64.

An example (I believe) of foreknowledge is Nathanael.

Jn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knoweth thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou was under the fig tree, I saw thee
49 Nathanael answered and said unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Look at this carefully. Jesus saw Nathanael coming. Compare to Luk 15:20.

Jesus called Nathanael a true Israelite. Compare to Rom 9:6-8.

Nathanael asked how Jesus KNEW him. Compare to Rom 8:29.

Jesus answered, BEFORE he was CALLED, Jesus SAW HIM. Compare to Rom 8:30.

Now (in time) Nathanael believes. Again, see Rom 8:30, whom he called, them he also justified.

Calvinists are not wrong in saying people are chosen or elect, it is scriptural. Where they err is saying it is unconditional. Election is conditioned on faith.

Foreseen faith before creation is pulled from thin air. No scripture says or implies God based His election before creation on individual foreseen faith. None, zip, nada.

We agree Jesus could read the minds of those he dealt with, whether Judas or Peter. But it is one thing to know what exists in the heart of another, and to claim to know what does not exist in the uncreated hearts of non-existence. Such an assertion has no biblical basis.

I am not sure what you were claiming based on John 1:47, but again this shows Jesus knowing all about those He encountered. Existent folks.

And we agree individual election for salvation is based on faith per 2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we disagree that the Ephesians 1:4 election was individual. No need to two individual elections of the same person. It makes no sense. And it is totally unnecessary to the gospel.

 

[percho]

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

(through sanctification of the Spirit) Called and given the Spirit. What relationship does that put you into with The Christ? John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, 15 I lay down my life for the sheep. It makes you a sheep of the Shepherd.
What can the sheep do that the non sheep can not do. The sheep: John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The non sheep: John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

How did it come about that you might be given the Spirit that sanctifies you?

Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises. This was from Abel up to and including Abraham and Sarah. However. Gal. 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
There were promises made by God to the man child seed of Abraham that was to come of the woman. Jesus the Christ. KJV 1st 8 words Gal 3:22 & v19 In order that all could be concluded under sin the law was added, until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; What did the seed, the Christ do before he received the promise?
Did it require anything of him? Gal 3:23 begins, before the faith came AND Gal 3:25 begins, but after the faith is come.

What was the faith? Who is the author and finisher of the faith? See Hebrews 12:2
God the Father raised Jesus the Christ the Son of God the promised seed of Abraham from the dead and gave him the promise of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus the Spirit is given to you to sanctify you as a sheep of the Good Shepherd. This was done through the obedience of the only begotten Son of God the seed of Abraham unto death even the death on the cross. Obedience of faith. That is when FAITH came. Because of the faith of Christ the promise of the Spirit makes us believing ones (SHEEP)

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (of the Spirit see G3:14) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (The ones believing, the sheep)

 

[Winman]

Foreseen faith before creation is pulled from thin air. No scripture says or implies God based His election before creation on individual foreseen faith. None, zip, nada.

We agree Jesus could read the minds of those he dealt with, whether Judas or Peter. But it is one thing to know what exists in the heart of another, and to claim to know what does not exist in the uncreated hearts of non-existence. Such an assertion has no biblical basis.

I am not sure what you were claiming based on John 1:47, but again this shows Jesus knowing all about those He encountered. Existent folks.

And we agree individual election for salvation is based on faith per 2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we disagree that the Ephesians 1:4 election was individual. No need to two individual elections of the same person. It makes no sense. And it is totally unnecessary to the gospel.

I have to disagree, Revelation 7 tells us of 144,000 Jews who will believe in Christ, these people do not exist yet, or at least they did not exist when John wrote this book.

 

[JesusFan]

Of course they can. That is what Paul shows in Romans 9. "Not all Israel (the elect) are Israel" (in covenant with God).

Not all of the Jews were elected to be saved though by God, JUST the faithful remnant that apostle paul refers to in Romans

The elect are those God has chosen to recieve his special revelation, by which they can enter covenant with God. This is represented by Paul as those "grafted into the tree" in Romans 11. Those elected are those grafted in and thus seeing, hearing and responding to the revelation from God by which they may be saved. The gospel goes first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

Again, God personally ALWAYS worked with individuals, so even the OT had that for election!

There is also the matter of God electing or appointed particular individuals as messengers of his Gospel, which is often used to confuse the clear biblical teaching of salvation through a faith response to that message.

Their election by god SAME as all of the saved, just had a special ministry to do on His behalf!

 

[Skandelon]

Not all of the Jews were elected to be saved though by God, JUST the faithful remnant that apostle paul refers to in Romans

Jews were NEVER elected to be saved, they were elected to receive God's revelation (prophets/scripture) and to be the lineage of Christ.

There is a big difference between electing someone to certainly be saved and electing someone to receive the means of the covenant by which they can be saved. Both involve Israel as a nation (corporately) and those individuals in Israel who respond to God's revelation in faith and those who don't. So, a coporate view of election is NOT an attempt to dismiss the individual aspect, it is only to show the purpose of election.

Again, God personally ALWAYS worked with individuals, so even the OT had that for election!

With regard to selecting divinely appointed messengers, yes He does, but show me where he works to effectually make select people in their audience to believe their message.

Their election by god SAME as all of the saved, just had a special ministry to do on His behalf!

Prove it with scripture.

 

[DHK]

Can the elect choose to reject Christ?

The question is moot.
Election applies only to the believer.
We are elect to praise God (to the praise of His glory)
We are elect "unto good works").
We are elect "to go and bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain."
We are elect..."to be conformed to the image of Christ."

Election applies only to the believer.

 

[percho]

The question is moot.
Election applies only to the believer.
We are elect to praise God (to the praise of His glory)
We are elect "unto good works").
We are elect "to go and bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain."
We are elect..."to be conformed to the image of Christ."

Election applies only to the believer.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, 15 I lay down my life for the sheep. It makes you a sheep of the Shepherd.
What can the sheep do that the non sheep can not do. The sheep: John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The non sheep: John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.