What is a Work?

[steaver]

Much discussion goes on concerning what is a work and what is not a work, but I have yet to read where anyone has defined what a work is. What is a work to you? How would you define it?

One can define words all day long by dictionaries and lexcons. What matters is what God's word calls a work as it pertains to salvation.

Paul made this very clear, a biblical work of salvation is the exact opposite of believing and faith. THis cannot be denied.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro 4:5)

Faith or believing is the opposite of works unto salvation, even if you want to call believing a work by your definitions, the bible still distinguishes between works of salvation and believing.

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver

One can define words all day long by dictionaries and lexcons. What matters is what God's word calls a work as it pertains to salvation

Well it was God who inspired Paul to write the word works in Eph 2:9, and that word means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[The Biblicist]

Works can be easily defined to be whatever he must give account for "according to his works" on the day of judgement. Works are whatever is generated from the heart of man - evil thoughts, words and actions:

Mt. 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


Such things are said to be the basis for being the "works" by which man is judged by God:

1. Things out of the heart - Mt. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

2. Words - Mt. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Thus "works" are what originates from men's hearts inclusive of their thoughts, words and actions - these are things they will be judged for "according to his works."

However, in direct contrast, justifying faith does not originate from the heart of men even though it is "with the heart man believeth" but originates from the "grace" of God working in and through men (Rom. 4:5, 16; Eph. 2:8-9; 11:6; Philip. 1:29; 2:13; Heb. 12:2; John 6:40,64-65). Hence, it is placed directly in contrast to the "works" of men.

Saving faith is explicitly said to be authored and finished by Christ - Heb. 12:2

Thus saving faith is a "work of God" not a work of men - Jn. 6:29

For it is God that worketh in the elect to "will" and to "do" whatever is "by grace" - Philip. 2:13

Hence, faith is "of grace" - Rom. 4:16

Therefore to him that "worketh not BUT believeth" - Rom. 4;5

So it is "by grace through faith...not of works" we are saved - Eph. 2:8-9

And if faith is "of grace then it is no more of works otherwise grace is no more grace.." - Rom. 11:6

CONCLUSION: Works are inclusive of "thoughts....words" and actions originating from the heart of man.

In the lost man, an evil tree can only produce evil fruit as Matthew 12:34-35 explicitly states. Therefore, justifying faith does not originate with the evil heart of man, and therefore not with the works of his evil heart (thoughts, words, actions) but with the grace of God (Rom. 4:5, 16; Eph. 2:8-9).

In a saved man "good works" originate with the NEW CREATION or NEW CREATURE produced by and empowered by the Indwelling Spirit of God (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Col. 3:10.

 

[billwald]

Unless some "works" are intrinsically "good" no matter the spiritual state of the doer then no one can do good works because the Bible teaches that we are all evil and no one seeks righteousness.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

Thus saving faith is a "work of God" not a work of men - Jn. 6:29

I agree, but man still believes at the command of God. Man's act of believing is caused by God working in him to both will and TO DO of His Good Pleasure.

Now if a man says he is justified before God because he DID God's good pleasure, then he is stating that he is Justified by his works !

That word DO in Phil 2:13 is the greek word energeō:

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


to be operative, be at work, put forth power

a) to work for one, aid one

2) to effect

3) to display one's activity, show one's self operative

it is even translated work 12 times !

Even though I perform or do something because God was working in me to do it, its still something I did, and if I attained Justification before God because of something I did, or God enabled me to do, its works !

 

[Moriah]

Works can be easily defined to be whatever he must give account for "according to his works" on the day of judgement. Works are whatever is generated from the heart of man - evil thoughts, words and actions:

When is it ever okay to be evil? It is never okay to be evil, not in thought and not in deed.

Such things are said to be the basis for being the "works" by which man is judged by God:
1. Things out of the heart - Mt. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
2. Words - Mt. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Thus "works" are what originates from men's hearts inclusive of their thoughts, words and actions - these are things they will be judged for "according to his works."

Read the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13: 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Nowhere does Jesus say what Calvinists say.

However, in direct contrast, justifying faith does not originate from the heart of men even though it is "with the heart man believeth" but originates from the "grace" of God working in and through men (Rom. 4:5, 16; Eph. 2:8-9; 11:6; Philip. 1:29; 2:13; Heb. 12:2; John 6:40,64-65). Hence, it is placed directly in contrast to the "works" of men. Saving faith is explicitly said to be authored and finished by Christ - Heb. 12:2

We would not know faith in Jesus if he had not come! We did not do anything to cause God to decide to send Jesus. God did not decide to make the plan of salvation because we asked Him, or because we begged God, or because we did some really good things. God made the plan of salvation before the creation of the world.

Thus saving faith is a "work of God" not a work of men - Jn. 6:29

Now you are preaching like SBM.
There were people who were looking for Jesus, they were looking for Jesus because they ate the loaves and had their fill. Those people did a lot of work looking for Jesus so they could get more food. However, Jesus tells them, “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
THEN THEY ASKED
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
You want us to believe that Jesus was talking about THEIR WORKING BY LOOKING FOR HIM FOR SOME BREAD MADE FROM FLOUR is NOT NOW ABOUT THEM DOING WORK THAT GOD REQUIRES. You know calling it the work God does for us is nonsense.

For it is God that worketh in the elect to "will" and to "do" whatever is "by grace" - Philip. 2:13

After we are saved, God works in in us to will and to act according to his good purpose!

Hence, faith is "of grace" - Rom. 4:16

What do you mean by saying, “Hence, faith is of grace”? Paul does not say that. Paul says, “Therefore, the promise comes by faith,

Therefore to him that "worketh not BUT believeth" - Rom. 4;5

Paul is explaining how the Jews who worked did not get saved because they did not believe in Jesus.

So it is "by grace through faith...not of works" we are saved - Eph. 2:8-9

Paul is explaining that God did not send Jesus to die for them because of things they did. God had the plan for salvation before the creation of the world. Paul is explaining that before Jesus came and died for us, no one did any good works to talk God into saving us. Jesus died for us while we were still sinners.

And if faith is "of grace then it is no more of works otherwise grace is no more grace.." - Rom. 11:6

Paul is explaining that the remnant was saved by believing in Jesus. The Jews had the works of the law. They had the works, which included ceremonial washings, gift and sin offerings, and other works. There were Jews who, for instance, gave sin offerings but they were not really sorry for their sins. They worked at their relationship with God, but they did not have faith in God’s Word.

CONCLUSION: Works are inclusive of "thoughts....words" and actions originating from the heart of man.

You dismiss Jesus’ words about obeying him. You dismiss James’ words about faith and actions working together. Yet you misunderstand Paul’s words and make doctrines from them that go against God’s word.
2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



I agree, but man still believes at the command of God.

But he is not DOING something but rather RECEIVING something - a gift! This is the PASSIVE side of faith that simply RECEIVES and RESTS upon the promise of the gospel with Christ being the object faith rests upon. The ACTIVE side of faith is the response to having been justified which originates from the new created nature which is empowered by the indwelling Spirit of God wherein God both worketh in us to "WILL" and to "DO" of His good pleasure.

Even though I perform or do something because God was working in me to do it, its still something I did, and if I attained Justification before God because of something I did, or God enabled me to do, its works !

I believe you are confusing the passive side of faith with the active side. The active side is what Philippians 2:13 is talking about and what Ephesians 2:10 sees as the consequence of being first created in Christ Jesus. However, the passive side is first addressed in Epheisans 2:8-9 which is part of the Creative work of God wherein faith merely RECEIVES the gift and therefore being saved "THROUGH" faith rather than any ACTION by faith.

 

[Moriah]

But he is not DOING something but rather RECEIVING something - a gift! This is the PASSIVE side of faith that simply RECEIVES and RESTS upon the promise of the gospel with Christ being the object faith rests upon. The ACTIVE side of faith is the response to having been justified which originates from the new created nature which is empowered by the indwelling Spirit of God wherein God both worketh in us to "WILL" and to "DO" of His good pleasure.




I believe you are confusing the passive side of faith with the active side. The active side is what Philippians 2:13 is talking about and what Ephesians 2:10 sees as the consequence of being first created in Christ Jesus. However, the passive side is first addressed in Epheisans 2:8-9 which is part of the Creative work of God wherein faith merely RECEIVES the gift and therefore being saved "THROUGH" faith rather than any ACTION by faith.

When it comes down to the very soul of it, you must believe as SBM believes, because that is the logical conclusion to what your beliefs entail. You might try to shake up some words to try to suggest you do not have the same beliefs as his, but it comes down to the same thing. Live with that fact, or reconsider your beliefs. Have a change of heart.

 

[The Biblicist]

When is it ever okay to be evil? It is never okay to be evil, not in thought and not in deed.

Your understanding of scriptures are so skewed that it is nearly impossible for you to correctly interpet the Word of God. Until you admit the Scriptures clearly teach that there is NONE, "NO, NOT ONE" that doeth good and is righteous in God's sight in regard to what God defines as "good" by His law or standard to determine right from wrong you cannot be helped (Rom. 3:9-11).

Read the parable of the sower.

Only one ground in the sower represents those who are saved while the other three represent "tares" as in the parable of the tares or false professors. Only the last ground has the hard ground broken up, the furrows plowed deep so there is no rock substrata beneath the soil and no weeds. Only the fourth soil represents the heart of true born again persons and this is easy to see as only in this soil is there a DISTINCTION between the fruit being produced by different Christians.

Nowhere does Jesus say what Calvinists say.

That is because you just read what you want to read:


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Don't like that part of scripture do you????

THEN THEY ASKED
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

And he goes on to explain it thoroughly how that saving faith is the work of God in a person and not their work as they were unable to beleive in Him (Jn. 6:37) because they were not given to him by the Father (Jn. 6:37-40) because ALL the Father gives to the Son come to him and ALL that come to him will be raised to the resurrection of eternal life not the condemnation (Jn. 6:39,40). No man can come to Christ EXCEPT the Father draws them (Jn. 6:40) meaning fiath must be "given" unto them (Jn. 6:65) which The Father never gave to unbelievers (Jn. 6:64). Thus Christ is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of faith (Heb. 12:2) as itis the "fruit" of the Spirit and thus the work of God.

 

[DHK]

We are not ALWAYS IN OUR FLESH.

The Bible says we at one time did things to please our flesh. The BIBLE

ALSO SAYS but we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in

impurity...we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT,

with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being

corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of our

minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true

righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24.

Did you read that? We did not come to know Christ while we were living to

please the flesh, we came to know Christ when we heard of him and were

taught TO PUT OFF OUR OLD SELF.

We are not ALWAYS IN OUR FLESH.

You are pitting Scripture against Scripture, taking Scriptures out of context to fit your ideas.
We started with salvation and I have not deviated from that point.
There is not one good thing an unsaved man can do to merit salvation.
The unsaved man is always in the flesh.
He is also called the natural man.
He cannot put off his old self, for that is all that he has. Salvation is not by reformation, but regeneration. The unsaved man is not regenerated.

Keep on topic and don't throw in verses that refer to the saved.
An unsaved man cannot please God. An unsaved man cannot obey God.
An unsaved man cannot keep the commands of God.
This subject that we have been talking about is "the unsaved man."
In no way can he please God. He is always in the flesh.

His works are as filthy rags--completely useless to God.

 

[Moriah]

Your understanding of scriptures are so skewed that it is nearly impossible for you to correctly interpet the Word of God. Until you admit the Scriptures clearly teach that there is NONE, "NO, NOT ONE" that doeth good and is righteous in God's sight in regard to what God defines as "good" by His law or standard to determine right from wrong you cannot be helped (Rom. 3:9-11).

We need a Savior, and we have a Savior. You do not understand the scriptures. With your beliefs, you make a mockery of God. God tells people to believe and obey. You tell people they cannot believe and obey.
You would have to tell someone not saved that they might already be saved and not know it! With your beliefs, you have to tell the unsaved to wait around and see if you God saved them, and to do nothing. You do not speak what the Bible says.

Only one ground in the sower represents those who are saved while the other three represent "tares" as in the parable of the tares or false professors. Only the last ground has the hard ground broken up, the furrows plowed deep so there is no rock substrata beneath the soil and no weeds. Only the fourth soil represents the heart of true born again persons and this is easy to see as only in this soil is there a DISTINCTION between the fruit being produced by different Christians.

You miss the whole message. We were all as the tares before we believed and did not give up.

That is because you just read what you want to read:

No, because of all the reading from the reformed group, you believe and teach falseness.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Don't like that part of scripture do you????

How many times do I have to explain those scriptures to you? When Jesus was on earth, he did not come for the Gentiles. When Jesus was on earth, he did not come to unbelieving Jews who were hardened and cut off.

 

[Moriah]

You are pitting Scripture against Scripture, taking Scriptures out of context to fit your ideas.

When you come on and falsely accuse me, it makes it even easier to see what you do. You pit scripture against scripture. You take scriptures out of context to fit your ideas. When someone comes with false accusations to me, they put it in their own words what they are guilty of doing.

We started with salvation and I have not deviated from that point.

No, that is what you are doing.

There is not one good thing an unsaved man can do to merit salvation.

Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. We did not do anything to cause Jesus to die for us.

The unsaved man is always in the flesh.

The unsaved man is not always living to please the flesh. When you were listening to someone explain the Way to you, were you listening to the good news, or were you doing some sin?

He is also called the natural man.
He cannot put off his old self, for that is all that he has. Salvation is not by reformation, but regeneration. The unsaved man is not regenerated.

I gave you scripture that says we did not learn of Jesus WHILE WE WERE engaging in sinfulness. I gave you scripture, does that mean anything to you?

Keep on topic and don't throw in verses that refer to the saved.

You keep to the topic. Of course, you want me to stop speaking the truth.

An unsaved man cannot please God. An unsaved man cannot obey God.
An unsaved man cannot keep the commands of God.
This subject that we have been talking about is "the unsaved man."

A person gets faith from hearing the word. A person hears the word and is at that time NOT sinning to please his flesh. That is scripture! We did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity...we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of our minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24.

 

[The Biblicist]

We need a Savior, and we have a Savior. You do not understand the scriptures. With your beliefs, you make a mockery of God. God tells people to believe and obey. You tell people they cannot believe and obey.

False! The gospel is the power of God unto salvation as it is the gospel that God empowers to create a beliving heart in lost man. We simply preach the good news that Christ has satisfied completely all the demands of God's law against sin for them, and that eternal life is obtained by simply receiving the gospel by repentance and faith. It is in preaching this very message and calling on men to COME to Christ in repentance and faith that God draws them and thus drawing they come.

You would have to tell someone not saved that they might already be saved and not know it! With your beliefs, you have to tell the unsaved to wait around and see if you God saved them, and to do nothing. You do not speak what the Bible says.

You mean like Christ did with Nicodemus??? Tell him he needs to be born again (Jn. 3:1-9) BEFORE telling him the gospel (Jn. 3:15-16)??? That was the order in his dialogue with Nicodemus wasn't it???????

His dialogue gave the proper cause and effect relationship between the new birth and gospel conversion. However, when God actually saves a person it is WHEN the gospel is being applied to them by the Holy Spirt in power so that while they are being drawn they are coming, while they are being turned they are turning and while they are being quickened they are repenting and believing. Since God does his part, my only part is to preach the gospel and call on them to repent and believe and IF they do then I know God has done his part IN them. However, all this is far way above your head.

How many times do I have to explain those scriptures to you? When Jesus was on earth, he did not come for the Gentiles. When Jesus was on earth, he did not come to unbelieving Jews who were hardened and cut off.

You have never once explained it RIGHT because you don't have a clue about it. First, these parables are not restricted to some Jewish remnant before the cross or to merely Jews! The "field" is the "WORLD" not Israel! The "tares" were never true believers as they were planted by Satan AS TARES! Hence, this passage is not merely applied to LOST Jews but to the LOST period all over the "WORLD" not merely in Israel. However, it is a waste of time to explain these things to you as you are in the situation of "them" in Matthew 13:11 and no amount of Biblical evidence will help you until you stop fighting the true gospel of God which was preached to the Jews BEFORE Jesus came and WHEN Jesus came and AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven as there has been NTHER GOSPEL (Jn. 14:6) but there has only been and forever will be but ONE WAY in contrast to the broad way (Mt. 7:13-14) and no other name every given under heaven before or after the cross (Acts 4:12; 10:43).

 

[DHK]

When you come on and falsely accuse me, it makes it even easier to see what you do. You pit scripture against scripture. You take scriptures out of context to fit your ideas. When someone comes with false accusations to me, they put it in their own words what they are guilty of doing.

I never made a false accusation. We are speaking of the unsaved and you quote Scripture that Jesus has directed to his disciples, the saved. That is not rightly dividing the word of truth. In fact if you are honestly debating this topic it is unethical to use scripture directed to Jesus disciples and use it as scripture directed to the unsaved. But you do it anyway. You use John 14:15,21,23 as Scriptures of obedience that the unsaved could do but they can't for they are unsaved.

No, that is what you are doing.

How am I deviating from the topic of the unsaved man?

Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. We did not do anything to cause Jesus to die for us.

That is true, and there is not one good thing that we can do to merit salvation. Salvation is not of works.

The unsaved man is not always living to please the flesh. When you were listening to someone explain the Way to you, were you listening to the good news, or were you doing some sin?

I wasn't trying to work my way to heaven as I said. I wasn't thinking in my heart that if I take the time to listen to this guy I will merit more brownie points for God in order to get to heaven, as many think they are doing. That is the thinking of the unsaved. That is the logic of the J.W.'s and why they come knocking on your door hoping they will get you to listen. They are "working their way to heaven." But those works are as filthy rags and unacceptable in God's eyes.
The J.W. as he explains God's word is the enemy of God, a friend of the devil, living in the flesh, and those that listen to him are committing sin in so doing.

I gave you scripture that says we did not learn of Jesus WHILE WE WERE engaging in sinfulness. I gave you scripture, does that mean anything to you?

What Scripture?
The unsaved man cannot do anything good, period. Case closed.

You keep to the topic. Of course, you want me to stop speaking the truth.

I do keep on topic, the topic of the unsaved unable to do any good thing for God. And then you paste Scripture that was directed to the disciples. That is not on topic and has nothing to do with the unsaved and their salvation. Do you know how to stay on topic?

A person gets faith from hearing the word. A person hears the word and is at that time NOT sinning to please his flesh. That is scripture!

That may be true, but off topic. We were talking about the deeds of an unsaved man which cannot please God.

We did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity...we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of our minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24.

That is all good and well, but that wasn't the topic.
The topic was the condition of an unsaved man. An unsaved man cannot put off the old man and put on the new man. It is impossible. It is impossible for him to live in righteousness and holiness and obey the commands of Eph.4:18-24, Scripture which only applicable to the saved.

You don't know how to stay on topic.
We are speaking of the unsaved man. The unsaved man cannot do good.
He is always in the flesh. He cannot please God. Everything he does is as filthy rags before God. Why don't you accept this?

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

False! The gospel is the power of God unto salvation as it is the gospel that God empowers to create a beliving heart in lost man.

No, The New Man believes the Gospel. The Elect are in a saved state when they believe the Gospel, not lost. The Lost man is blinded by satan 2 Cor 4:3-4

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: Presnt tense, in a lost state !

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Moriah]

Biblicist and DHK,

I can easily prove that we can choose to believe in God.

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself.

 

[DHK]

Biblicist and DHK,

I can easily prove that we can choose to believe in God.

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself.

Who are you debating? Who are you talking to? Yourself?
Go and read over the posts.
Where did I say it wasn't. You are confused.

The topic I was discussing with you is that it is impossible for a man to merit salvation. All his good works mean nothing to Him. They are as filthy rags. A man in his unsaved state remains "in the flesh." He cannot do good.

What has your post got to do with this conversation?
What have you proved?

It is a complete non sequitor.

It is like two men discussing which is better: a green carpet or a red carpet to put in the church. Finally one of them says I think the best solution is to paint the walls. That wasn't the topic, but that is what you keep doing.

 

[savedbymercy]

That the elect are in a saved but not state when they believe is seen in Pauls statement here 1 Cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Preaching of the Gospel or the Cross is only being the Power of God unto them that are being saved, they are in a saved state ! To them that are in a perishing or lost state it is foolishness !

 

[Moriah]

Who are you debating? Who are you talking to? Yourself?
Go and read over the posts.
Where did I say it wasn't. You are confused.

The topic I was discussing with you is that it is impossible for a man to merit salvation. All his good works mean nothing to Him. They are as filthy rags. A man in his unsaved state remains "in the flesh." He cannot do good.

What has your post got to do with this conversation?
What have you proved?

[/SIZE]

You are confused.

If man is as totally depraved as you teach, then he could not believe on his own, as you are now trying to claim he can. Since you now claim that man can believe on his own without first being saved, then you must also believe that man can confess before he is saved, as we are supposed to do before we receive the Holy Spirit.

You have been doing nothing but fighting me and saying we can do nothing God asks. I gave you scripture proving you wrong. Here it is again.

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself.

How can ANYONE do God’s will? YOU said the unsaved cannot do God’s will. John says, “IF ANYONE” chooses to do God’s will.

John is speaking about an unbeliever, for he says, “he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”

A believer does not wonder if the apostles spoke their own words.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist and DHK,

I can easily prove that we can choose to believe in God.

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself.

No one is denying the lost person chooses! The argument is about what is the CAUSE for him choosing! Is that cause found in himself or in the Holy Spirit? You say it is found in himself while I say it is found in the grace of God and in the transforming power of the Holy Spirit through the preached gospel (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 4:6).