What is a Work?

[The Biblicist]

That the elect are in a saved but not state when they believe is seen in Pauls statement here 1 Cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Preaching of the Gospel or the Cross is only being the Power of God unto them that are being saved, they are in a saved state ! To them that are in a perishing or lost state it is foolishness !

Wrong - read 2 Cor. 4:6 and 1 Thes. 1:4-5. The effectual call is through the preaching of the gospel as empowered by God not by men (2 Thes. 2:13-14). When it comes in "word only" it has no saving power. When it comes in "word only" then it is foolishness to the lost but when it comes "in power and in the Holy Spirit" it is regenerating and transforming producing LIGHT in the darkened lost condition of the elect.

 

[Moriah]

No one is denying the lost person chooses!

Are you kidding? You are the one who keeps saying an unsaved person cannot even believe in God without God first saving him and causing him to believe.

The argument is about what is the CAUSE for him choosing! Is that cause found in himself or in the Holy Spirit?

See, you just got through saying no one is denying the lost person chooses, then you turn around and say the argument is about what is the cause for him choosing. HE CHOOSES TO DO WHAT HE HAS HEARD, BECAUSE FAITH COMES FROM HEARING.

You say it is found in himself while I say it is found in the grace of God and in the transforming power of the Holy Spirit through the preached gospel (1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Cor. 4:6).

You believe that God saves a person first, and simultaneously, while the person is being saved, God has caused the person to believe through the saving. THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL.

 

[Moriah]

Wrong - read 2 Cor. 4:6 and 1 Thes. 1:4-5. The effectual call is through the preaching of the gospel as empowered by God not by men (2 Thes. 2:13-14). When it comes in "word only" it has no saving power. When it comes in "word only" then it is foolishness to the lost but when it comes "in power and in the Holy Spirit" it is regenerating and transforming producing LIGHT in the darkened lost condition of the elect.

You do not see it, and you are fighting it, but your beliefs come down to those of what SBM teaches. Your beliefs come down to those of SBM's.

 

[DHK]

You are confused.

If man is as totally depraved as you teach, then he could not believe on his own, as you are now trying to claim he can.

1. Is he depraved or totally depraved? Which do I believe? Quote me.
2. Can he believe on his own? Quote me where I said he could not come to Jesus? Are you in the habit of putting words in the mouths of people, making false misrepresentations, and thus a lie?

Since you now claim that man can believe on his own without first being saved, then you must also believe that man can confess before he is saved, as we are supposed to do before we receive the Holy Spirit.

When a person is saved there are two things that are necessary: the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

But you deflect this entire conversation. You can't stay on topic. I have tried to consistently say that an unsaved man cannot do good, cannot do anything that is good to merit heaven. Then you change the subject, and start making personal accusations.

You have been doing nothing but fighting me and saying we can do nothing God asks. I gave you scripture proving you wrong. Here it is again.

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself.

No you haven't. You have proved that you have disregarded the context, and have not looked at the underlying Greek of that particular verse. When Jesus finished speaking what was the reaction of those Jews?
Did they choose to do His will?

John 7:17-20 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Fine gentlemen weren't they??
"If any man will do his will..." The meaning is "if any man will do completely, perfectly his will (which is impossible for them to do), then he shall know of the doctrine (which was impossible for them to know). For these were carnal men and they sought only their own glory.

How can ANYONE do God’s will? YOU said the unsaved cannot do God’s will. John says, “IF ANYONE” chooses to do God’s will.

You are taking Scripture out of context. The unsaved seeks only to do his own will and glorifies himself and not God. That is what Jesus says.

John is speaking about an unbeliever, for he says, “he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”

A believer does not wonder if the apostles spoke their own words.

Yes, he was, and those same unbelievers called him a devil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[convicted1]

What is a "work"?

Boy, I'm tired already....LOL

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Convicted1, you are dismissed.:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Convicted1, you are dismissed.:thumbs:

But I haven't finished my job yet...:laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This topic will never go away. We face it daily on this list. What I hate is that I do not have the time to respond to the many posts that have been written so far. I will simply pray that God will reveal truth to the hearts of the listeners. Hopefully in a few days I will have time and the leading to know how and when to jump back in.

 

[Moriah]

1. Is he depraved or totally depraved? Which do I believe? Quote me.

You believe in the same depravity that Calvinists believe. You said man could not do anything, not even get Jesus’ teachings, and do any of them. That is nowhere in the Bible.

2. Can he believe on his own? Quote me where I said he could not come to Jesus? Are you in the habit of putting words in the mouths of people, making false misrepresentations, and thus a lie?

Quote me where I said you said that. You are the one making things up. You quoted me as saying, “If man is as totally depraved as you teach, then he could not believe on his own, as you are now trying to claim he can.” Then you responded by saying, “Quote me where I said he could not come to Jesus?” So, I ask you, are you in the habit of putting words in the mouths of people, making false misrepresentations, and thus a lie, as you said to me?
You just cannot help but resort back to your bad debate tactics.

But you deflect this entire conversation. You can't stay on topic. IThen you change the subject, and start making personal accusations.

It did not take long for the same old ways to take hold of you. You were being decent enough, but now it is back to the same old debate tactics.

No you haven't. You have proved that you have disregarded the context, and have not looked at the underlying Greek of that particular verse. When Jesus finished speaking what was the reaction of those Jews?

God has opened the eyes of my heart. I do not need to learn Greek. What has learning Greek done for you?

John 7:17-20 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Fine gentlemen weren't they??

Not everyone wants Jesus to save them.

"If any man will do his will..." The meaning is "if any man will do completely, perfectly his will (which is impossible for them to do), then he shall know of the doctrine (which was impossible for them to know). For these were carnal men and they sought only their own glory.

You just added to the word of God in your explanation.

You are taking Scripture out of context. The unsaved seeks only to do his own will and glorifies himself and not God. That is what Jesus says.

Jesus says, ""Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. Matthew 7:24.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by DHK
"If any man will do his will..." The meaning is "if any man will do completely, perfectly his will (which is impossible for them to do), then he shall know of the doctrine (which was impossible for them to know). For these were carnal men and they sought only their own glory.

Moriah: You just added to the word of God in your explanation.

HP: Moriah, indeed he did. It is a misrepresentation of Scripture to imply that the commandments of God are impossible to keep. I like it when Moses set the children of Israel straight before they started saying the same thing.



Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

I would ask DHK and the others that would say it is impossible to keep God's commandments, and read such a false notion into every verse that commands us to obey, to tell us just what Moses said was indeed entirely possible to do? Read it again. Then look in the mirror with a straight face and call Moses a liar.

 

[DHK]

I would ask DHK and the others that would say it is impossible to keep God's commandments, and read such a false notion into every verse that commands us to obey, to tell us just what Moses said was indeed entirely possible to do? Read it again. Then look in the mirror with a straight face and call Moses a liar.

You are not even honest with yourself. Either you are completely naive or a hypocrite. Which one?
Concerning the very Scripture you posted do you keep it--completely, 100%, not just try, but do you keep it, all the time?

Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Like I said, call Moses a liar. Did he or did he not specifically and emphatically state that they could do precisely as he told them to act?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

HP: Does someone want to call Luke a liar, and set him straight that no one can walk blameless before the Lord, keeping the commandments and ordinances, blameless?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It matters not whether there is or is not a man alive keeping the commandments of the Lord. It is foolish to establish doctrine based on ones personal experience if it contradicts Scripture. If Scripture says it is possible and we are commanded to do it, we had beter be paying close attention. Those who develop their beliefs by comparing themselves to themselves or among themselves, or make up lies about the relationships others have with the Lord that they know nothing about, Scripture states are not wise.

Let's be wise and believe Scripture and let every man be a liar.:thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

Like I said, call Moses a liar. Did he or did he not specifically and emphatically state that they could do precisely as he told them to act?

What could this possible do with Moses? You are way off base, and are changing the topic, as you usually do when cornered.
I am not asking Moses if he can keep the Law.
I am asking YOU!
Moses, through the Lord, gave that commandment. Now, I have asked you plainly:

Concerning the very Scripture you posted do you keep it--completely, 100%, not just try, but do you keep it, all the time?

Just answer the question; quit avoiding it.

 

[billwald]

YES! Moses clearly stated that the Law was doable.