What is Babylon?

[Eternally Grateful]

If I understand this, you are suggesting that "Mother of Harlots" is similar to a pimp. Israel had played the harlot with the Roman Empire, cheating on her Husband, which is Christ.

no this is not what I meant, sorry if I confused you

Israel did not play the harlot with the Roman Empire. She was hoping her messiah would free her from being enslaved to the Roman Empire, when they found out Christ did not come at that time to do this, they rejected him.

The pimp would be the mother of harlots. Which again, would not be jerusalem. She was the cheating wife.

Now what we have to do is look at history and find out who the mother (pimp, or head ot the prostitutes) is.

I didn't think you were trying to bust my chops, but it was nice of you to make sure I didn't feel slighted. We're just having a conversation here, not an argument. After all, isn't that one of the reasons we are on the Baptist Board?

Thats good. And I thank you for a peaceful conversation. That is rare in many chat rooms. Especially with this topic..

 

[Lodic]

Rev 17 is speaking of a future event.

I am not sure how ad 70 fulfills even part of revelation. Can you explain this to me?

I'm not sure how much to write, as the Preterist view is a lot to take in if you are not familiar with it. Here is a very brief summary.

I believe there is plenty of support that Revelation was written in the mid-60s, not the 90s. Revelation was written to 7 real churches in Asia Minor. In the Preterist view, there is no worldwide Great Tribulation, no future Antichrist, etc. The Great Tribulation (of the Olivet Discourse) was the Jewish Wars of AD 66-70, when over 1 million Jews were slaughtered. Revelation is filled with symbolism, but I believe it's all about the judgment on Jerusalem. Jerusalem experienced extreme famine and bloodshed. The Beast was the Roman Empire. 666 was Nero. The False Prophet was Apostate Israel.
The Temple was still standing in the Book of Revelation. The 6th "king" of Rev 17:9-11 was Nero.

For the record, some events (e.g. Christ's 2nd Coming, Great White Throne Judgment) are still in our future.
I apologize if I didn't answer your question, or if I presented more than you were looking for. Fortunately for both of us, this is not an issue that affects our relationship with Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not sure how much to write, as the Preterist view is a lot to take in if you are not familiar with it. Here is a very brief summary.

I believe there is plenty of support that Revelation was written in the mid-60s, not the 90s. Revelation was written to 7 real churches in Asia Minor. In the Preterist view, there is no worldwide Great Tribulation, no future Antichrist, etc. The Great Tribulation (of the Olivet Discourse) was the Jewish Wars of AD 66-70, when over 1 million Jews were slaughtered. Revelation is filled with symbolism, but I believe it's all about the judgment on Jerusalem. Jerusalem experienced extreme famine and bloodshed. The Beast was the Roman Empire. 666 was Nero. The False Prophet was Apostate Israel.
The Temple was still standing in the Book of Revelation. The 6th "king" of Rev 17:9-11 was Nero.

For the record, some events (e.g. Christ's 2nd Coming, Great White Throne Judgment) are still in our future.
I apologize if I didn't answer your question, or if I presented more than you were looking for. Fortunately for both of us, this is not an issue that affects our relationship with Christ.

No, You are fine. I was just asking how you saw many of the things in revelation pertain to 70 AD.

I understand the 7 churches. And it was written to them. It was written to write about things which are (in that day) and the things which will come. And all that he saw.

I see revelation of the NT version of daniel. I actually did a study on the 4 beasts of daniel. And we can sea and correlate these beasts with revelations included. The difference is, Dan 2 gave us a basic description, Dan 7 gave us a deeper description. Rev actually goes even deeper. Yet it is the dame final beast system.

I see The beast of revelation is the final beast of the gentile kingdom which will be destroyed by Christ himself at his return. The one which is destroyed by the rock in Daniel 2. By the ancient of days in Daniel 7. Christ himself in Matt 24 and in revelations 19…

While AD 70 was horrific. If we look at the time of Jacobs trouble (ot) and the time of great tribulation (matt 24) we see that this time is greater than has ever been before or after. If we look at history. WW1 and WW2 alone made ad 70 look like a walk in the park.

We also see. At the end of that time, As jesus said, If he did not come, no flesh would survive, So this period ends with the return of Christ himself.

Just a basic response. We can gat deeper if we want. Like you said there is far to much to go into.

I do have a question though. In revelations 17: 3, it says the mother of harlots sits on the beast himself. This is one characteristic. In AD 70. What form of jerusalem sat on the Roman Empire (the beast)

 

[Lodic]

Just a basic response. We can gat deeper if we want. Like you said there is far to much to go into.

I do have a question though. In revelations 17: 3, it says the mother of harlots sits on the beast himself. This is one characteristic. In AD 70. What form of jerusalem sat on the Roman Empire (the beast)

Thank you for explaining your views. We don't need to go deeper at this time, as I think we understand each other's views pretty well.

In the early 1st Century, and up to AD 70, Israel was dependent upon the Roman Empire. Even Israel's priests had to appease Rome. Israel's rejection of Christ as Messiah was the final "nail in the coffin" for Jerusalem. If the Beast of Rev 17:3 is the Roman Empire, Jerusalem "sits" upon the Beast in a political partnership. The Jews rebelled against Roman rule, which was when the Roman Armies were ultimately used in God's judgment when they destroyed the city. That's probably not a very thorough answer, but I need to shut down for the night. I'm enjoying our discussion, so I look forward to picking it up tomorrow.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I will answer quickly and briefly until we meet again tomorrow

1. In my view, when someone sits on someone, they are controlling them. Its deeper than just a partnership. In rev 17, the woman controls the beast and what he can do. Its one of the reasons the beast must destroy her, Hs is a danger to him (in my view) there are more characteristics we need to get into. That was just one.

As for AD 70. I think I want to point to lev 26, as the reason why AD 70 happened.

Lev 26:
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste

We can see everything that happened to jerusalem in 70 AD is prety much spoken word for word here. Her rejection of the messiah was the final straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

It is also seen in Daniel 9

Dan 9: 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

We can see in both cases, the punishment is still active, these things are still true today.

Hope you have a great evening brother!!

 

[Iconoclast]

Would it be fair to say Babylon and Jerusalem have existed from the foundation of the world as darkness and light? Out of darkness Light to shine?

No.

 

[Lodic]

I will answer quickly and briefly until we meet again tomorrow

1. In my view, when someone sits on someone, they are controlling them. Its deeper than just a partnership. In rev 17, the woman controls the beast and what he can do. Its one of the reasons the beast must destroy her, Hs is a danger to him (in my view) there are more characteristics we need to get into. That was just one.

As for AD 70. I think I want to point to lev 26, as the reason why AD 70 happened.

Lev 26:
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste

We can see everything that happened to jerusalem in 70 AD is prety much spoken word for word here. Her rejection of the messiah was the final straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

It is also seen in Daniel 9

Dan 9: 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

We can see in both cases, the punishment is still active, these things are still true today.

Hope you have a great evening brother!!

I'd never looked at Lev 26 in connection with the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem, but you are absolutely correct. That was fulfilled to the letter.

As part of the 70 Weeks Prophecy, the first part of Dan 9:26 was fulfilled at the Cross. The "people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city...desolations are determined" was also definitely fulfilled in AD 70.

How is it that the punishments is still active? How can these things be true today when they were fulfilled in AD 70?

 

[kyredneck]

Just as Israel was guilty of spiritual adultery and adultery several times in the Old Testament,

To name only a few:

Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication. Rev 17:1,2

26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians, thy neighbors, great of flesh; and hast multiplied thy whoredom, to provoke me to anger.
28 Thou hast played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because thou wast insatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet thou wast not satisfied.
29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy whoredom unto the land of traffic, unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.
32 A wife that committeth adultery! that taketh strangers instead of her husband! Ezek 16

she was guilty of having prostituted herself to the Roman Empire.

Israel did not play the harlot with the Roman Empire.

In the worst way possible:

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Acts 2

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt23

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

…..it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Lu 13:33

 

[kyredneck]

"Mother of Harlots" is not literal, but hyperbole.

???

The Jewish Foundation Of Islam

 

[kyredneck]

"Mother of Harlots" is not literal, but hyperbole.

The Jewish Foundation Of Communism

 

[robycop3]

Amen

And one is yet to come at that time.

I believe this will also be rome, The final form of the fourth beast, the toes of Iron and Clay.

The beast's empire will at first be made from peoples that were part of the old Roman empires.

 

[robycop3]

Rev 17 & 18 are all about the harlot. This harlot is the same as Jerusalem, AKA the great city which is mystically called Sodom & Egypt (Rev 11:8-9).

No, Rev. 17:18 says she's the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. At that time that was ROME. Jerusalem never ruled over anything but Israel/Judah & the peoples subject to them.

 

[Lodic]

???

The Jewish Foundation Of Islam

I worded that poorly. My meaning was that Israel was the ultimate harlot, as she had committed spiritual adultery when she was supposed to be "married" to God. Did not know about the Jewish connection of Islam.

 

[Lodic]

No, Rev. 17:18 says she's the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. At that time that was ROME. Jerusalem never ruled over anything but Israel/Judah & the peoples subject to them.

"Great city" points back to Rev 11:8, which is clearly Jerusalem. Rev 17:18 is better translated as "the woman whom you saw is the great city, which rules the Land". This speaks of Jerusalem as the capital city of the Land of Israel, not a ruler of the whole earth.

 

[Lodic]

The Jewish Foundation Of Communism

You have a wealth of information. Had no idea of this history.

 

[Iconoclast]

Would it be fair to say Babylon and Jerusalem have existed from the foundation of the world as darkness and light? Out of darkness Light to shine?

Percho,
The two kingdoms are the seed of the woman, and the seed of the serpent.

 

[kyredneck]

You have a wealth of information. Had no idea of this history.

The information is 'straight from the horse's mouth'.

 

[robycop3]

"Great city" points back to Rev 11:8, which is clearly Jerusalem. Rev 17:18 is better translated as "the woman whom you saw is the great city, which rules the Land". This speaks of Jerusalem as the capital city of the Land of Israel, not a ruler of the whole earth.

With all due respect, I went back & checked the Greek,and indeed "kings or leaders of the earth or the nations" is the best translation. The words are "basileus ge". So, the harlot is Rome.

 

[Lodic]

With all due respect, I went back & checked the Greek,and indeed "kings or leaders of the earth or the nations" is the best translation. The words are "basileus ge". So, the harlot is Rome.

I can appreciate you checking the Greek. The meaning remains the same, though. This refers to Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel. Don't overlook that one of the translations of "ge" is "land", as in "the land of Israel". Respectfully, Brother, we continue to disagree.

 

[robycop3]

I can appreciate you checking the Greek. The meaning remains the same, though. This refers to Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel. Don't overlook that one of the translations of "ge" is "land", as in "the land of Israel". Respectfully, Brother, we continue to disagree.

Yes, because you still have an incorrect view.