What is Babylon?

[Eternally Grateful]

I'd never looked at Lev 26 in connection with the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem, but you are absolutely correct. That was fulfilled to the letter.

As part of the 70 Weeks Prophecy, the first part of Dan 9:26 was fulfilled at the Cross. The "people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city...desolations are determined" was also definitely fulfilled in AD 70.

How is it that the punishments is still active? How can these things be true today when they were fulfilled in AD 70?

Dan 9: 26b

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

There is a period of time where the city and temple will lie desolate and the next verse, which is the confirming a covenant with many for 1 week (7 years)

I believe we are in that undetermined time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The beast's empire will at first be made from peoples that were part of the old Roman empires.

Yes, He is the prince who is to come. Which confirms a covenant, and also breaks that covenant in the middle of the week.

 

[percho]

Percho,
The two kingdoms are the seed of the woman, and the seed of the serpent.

That is fair and was there adversity between the two even before there were seed?

to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the authority of the Adversary unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith that is toward me. Acts 26:18

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light that good, and God [separateth] between [the] light and [the] darkness, Gen 1:2-4

Is it the same adversity that is seen in Babylon and Jerusalem/New Jerusalem?

BTW I can accept a no answer but it is just the way I understand the word.

 

[Iconoclast]

That is fair and was there adversity between the two even before there were seed?

to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the authority of the Adversary unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith that is toward me. Acts 26:18

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light that good, and God [separateth] between [the] light and [the] darkness, Gen 1:2-4

Is it the same adversity that is seen in Babylon and Jerusalem/New Jerusalem?

BTW I can accept a no answer but it is just the way I understand the word.

Yes.....the two seeds developed in several places worldwide.

 

[percho]

Question?

For the preterist has the Babylon of Rev or for that matter any Babylon come and gone?

 

[Lodic]

Yes, because you still have an incorrect view.

So you've been trying to tell me for a few years now. Then again, I say it's you with the incorrect view. No problem. We will never agree, and this is not a "salvation" issue. Nothing more than different interpretations of prophecy. I am convinced my view is correct, just as you are convinced your view is correct, and everyone who holds any of the other half dozen views are convinced they are correct.

 

[Lodic]

Dan 9: 26b

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

There is a period of time where the city and temple will lie desolate and the next verse, which is the confirming a covenant with many for 1 week (7 years)

I believe we are in that undetermined time.

Although I disagree, I believe I see where you are coming from. Many Christians see an undetermined gap of time between Daniel's 69th and 70th Weeks. Since this 70 Weeks Prophecy is based on Judah's 70 years of Babylonian captivity, and since there was no gap in those 70 years, I don't see a gap anywhere in the 70 Weeks prophecy. I believe the "prince who is to come" (last half of Daniel 9:26) was General Titus, who brought the desolation upon Jerusalem. This is confirmed by Luke 21:20, where Jesus told His disciples "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near".

 

[Lodic]

Question?

For the preterist has the Babylon of Rev or for that matter any Babylon come and gone?

Friendly neighborhood Preterist here (with apologies to Spider-Man). Yes, I believe the Babylon of Revelation was 1st Century Jerusalem - not Rome. We have had "types" of Babylon since then, as @Mark Corbett has shown us. Today, we especially this with the entertainment industry, which affects too many in the Church. Thus, the call to "come out of her" very much applies today.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Although I disagree, I believe I see where you are coming from. Many Christians see an undetermined gap of time between Daniel's 69th and 70th Weeks. Since this 70 Weeks Prophecy is based on Judah's 70 years of Babylonian captivity, and since there was no gap in those 70 years, I don't see a gap anywhere in the 70 Weeks prophecy. I believe the "prince who is to come" (last half of Daniel 9:26) was General Titus, who brought the desolation upon Jerusalem. This is confirmed by Luke 21:20, where Jesus told His disciples "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near".

Even in your own version you have a gap.

Jesus died at the end of the 69th week. He came riding on a donkey just as the prophet for told. And died a week later.

40 years later, the people of the prince (not the prince himself) destroyed the city and sanctuary.

Then we still have the final week.,…

Just saying, I do not have to prime to go into it right now. I have a bible study to go to.

 

[percho]

OP What is Babylon

This vid is 1 hr 17 min but it shows why what is going on in the world today is going on. It is because Babylon is in control.
It began for our age the day Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But existed IMHO before that.

Please watch: THEY HAVE STOLEN EVERYTHING! Leslie Manookian at the Corona Grand Jury, Day 5 (bitchute.com)

Because of Satan the devil, man wants to do what man wants to do, instead of how God tells him what is best for him.

It is all about the money. Why do the Elites want a great reset? It is about the money. It is about debt. It is about too many humans. Why has it gotten in the shape it is in? Because man has been doing it man's way influenced by, the prince of the power of the air, for 6000 years. And IMHO we are at fault because we (Christians) have said the key is no more. Think about it. For 6000 years the earth has not seen her sabbaths. The Sabbath points to the sabbaths. Every fifty years God said to have a year of Jubilee with all debt forgiven.

Invent a virus, create a vaccine that creates more problems than it solves, issue mandates and gain control, kill as many as you can and then have the great reset.

Who do you believe controls Justin Pierre James Trudeau, who may well be, the son of Fidel Castro?
The prince of the power of the air?

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world ( τὴν οἰκουμένην - the inhabited earth) to come (τὴν μέλλουσαν - the to come), whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

 

[Lodic]

Even in your own version you have a gap.

Jesus died at the end of the 69th week. He came riding on a donkey just as the prophet for told. And died a week later.

40 years later, the people of the prince (not the prince himself) destroyed the city and sanctuary.

Then we still have the final week.,…

Just saying, I do not have to prime to go into it right now. I have a bible study to go to.

True, the 70th Week could not have extended to AD 70. I've given this a great deal of study, and I think I have an answer to that conundrum. Rejecting Jesus and crying out for a murderer to be set free determined the destruction of Jerusalem which would come @ 40 years later. The Crucifixion was in the middle of the 70th Week. The destruction of Jerusalem did not come during the 70th Week because the events that determined its desolation were set in place earlier.

The people of the prince were acting under the orders and authority of the prince when they destroyed the city and sanctuary.

Now I need to run off to a Men's Bible Study. Blessings, Brother.

 

[robycop3]

So you've been trying to tell me for a few years now. Then again, I say it's you with the incorrect view. No problem. We will never agree, and this is not a "salvation" issue. Nothing more than different interpretations of prophecy. I am convinced my view is correct, just as you are convinced your view is correct, and everyone who holds any of the other half dozen views are convinced they are correct.

But I've pretty well proved mine with Scripture and history together, while all you've offered is imagination & guesswork, plus the hooey of Gentry, DeMar, & other quacks. Your insistence that Jerusalem is the harlot of Rev. 17 is an example.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True, the 70th Week could not have extended to AD 70. I've given this a great deal of study, and I think I have an answer to that conundrum. Rejecting Jesus and crying out for a murderer to be set free determined the destruction of Jerusalem which would come @ 40 years later. The Crucifixion was in the middle of the 70th Week. The destruction of Jerusalem did not come during the 70th Week because the events that determined its desolation were set in place earlier.

The people of the prince were acting under the orders and authority of the prince when they destroyed the city and sanctuary.

Now I need to run off to a Men's Bible Study. Blessings, Brother.

That's cool that we both had Men's group last night (we call ours a Cell group) Hope yours went well. Mine was a blessing as always.

bear with me, at the end this turned out to be long....

In response to the crucifixion being in the middle of the week.

Jesus himself said to jerusalem,...

Matt 23:
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Luke 19: 41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Of note. when looking at these passages.

1. They were both after Jesus entered Jerusalem, As messiah (remember, he kept saying it was not his time yet. Now it was his time)
2. IN both, He said they were unwilling, one he actually said they should have known this time. But now (this moment) it is hidden.
3. We have in the OT. a prophecy of the introduction of messiah the prince. Only one prophecy is directed to this event.

Zech 9: 9
The Coming King
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

This is what they expected.

Then we look at Dan 9

Dan 9:
25 “Know therefore and understand,That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Se we see here, From the command to restore the CITY (this is important to get the right date) until Messiah (when he enters Jerusalem) shall be 69 weeks,

Then we continue and see three things

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

The Hebrew word translated "after" means at the end of. Following, it has with it the notion that the next event which immediately follows, Jesus entering Jerusalem marked the end of the 69th week. Immediately after. Messiah was cut off (in the Hebrew killed)

As for the prince who is to come.. I believe the prince who is to come is the one who confirms a covenant for one week with many. Who himself desecrates the temple with the abomination of desolation. If we look at history, and I believe even today. We do not say the people of the general destroyed a city, We say the general destroyed the city. The people of the future king (prince) will destroy the city. The people were the roman army led by Titus. so the future prince will be from Rome..

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The next event after messiah being killed. Is the city will be destroyed and as Jesus said, will be left desolate (Matt 23)

The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Here we see that this desolation will continue fort a time period. Notice also, war desolations (plural) are determined. As I said before. this is a period of time that I believe we are still seeing today. When I see this, I think of Jesus words in matt 24. there will be wars and rumors of wars. nation sill rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. but the end is not yet.

Then remember what Jesus said happens after these birth pangs as we call them. The great tribulation. Which also occurs at the time they see an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

The reason I mention this is is that next series of events in dan 9 is the week covenant, which is broken by an abomination which makes desolate. Which Jesus mentions in Matt 24.

There was no abomination of desolation (An idol or unclean thing placed in a holy place. in this case, the most holy or holy of holy's) in 70 AD. So that could not be the event which occurred in the middle of the 70th week.

Hope you had a wonderful evening!!

 

[Lodic]

But I've pretty well proved mine with Scripture and history together, while all you've offered is imagination & guesswork, plus the hooey of Gentry, DeMar, & other quacks. Your insistence that Jerusalem is the harlot of Rev. 17 is an example.

Respectfully, Brother, you haven't proven a thing. You say my views are guesswork, but I am not the one who has to change what the Scriptures actually say in order to make my case. As I've said before, I'll stick with what Jesus clearly said over your reinterpretations.

 

[Lodic]

That's cool that we both had Men's group last night (we call ours a Cell group) Hope yours went well. Mine was a blessing as always.

bear with me, at the end this turned out to be long....

In response to the crucifixion being in the middle of the week.

Jesus himself said to jerusalem,...

Matt 23:
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Luke 19: 41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Of note. when looking at these passages.

1. They were both after Jesus entered Jerusalem, As messiah (remember, he kept saying it was not his time yet. Now it was his time)
2. IN both, He said they were unwilling, one he actually said they should have known this time. But now (this moment) it is hidden.
3. We have in the OT. a prophecy of the introduction of messiah the prince. Only one prophecy is directed to this event.

Zech 9: 9
The Coming King
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

This is what they expected.

Then we look at Dan 9

Dan 9:
25 “Know therefore and understand,That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Se we see here, From the command to restore the CITY (this is important to get the right date) until Messiah (when he enters Jerusalem) shall be 69 weeks,

Then we continue and see three things

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

The Hebrew word translated "after" means at the end of. Following, it has with it the notion that the next event which immediately follows, Jesus entering Jerusalem marked the end of the 69th week. Immediately after. Messiah was cut off (in the Hebrew killed)

As for the prince who is to come.. I believe the prince who is to come is the one who confirms a covenant for one week with many. Who himself desecrates the temple with the abomination of desolation. If we look at history, and I believe even today. We do not say the people of the general destroyed a city, We say the general destroyed the city. The people of the future king (prince) will destroy the city. The people were the roman army led by Titus. so the future prince will be from Rome..

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The next event after messiah being killed. Is the city will be destroyed and as Jesus said, will be left desolate (Matt 23)

The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Here we see that this desolation will continue fort a time period. Notice also, war desolations (plural) are determined. As I said before. this is a period of time that I believe we are still seeing today. When I see this, I think of Jesus words in matt 24. there will be wars and rumors of wars. nation sill rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. but the end is not yet.

Then remember what Jesus said happens after these birth pangs as we call them. The great tribulation. Which also occurs at the time they see an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

The reason I mention this is is that next series of events in dan 9 is the week covenant, which is broken by an abomination which makes desolate. Which Jesus mentions in Matt 24.

There was no abomination of desolation (An idol or unclean thing placed in a holy place. in this case, the most holy or holy of holy's) in 70 AD. So that could not be the event which occurred in the middle of the 70th week.

Hope you had a wonderful evening!!

I'm on the road visiting relatives and didn't bring my laptop. If you don't mind, I will keep my answer short, as I am using my phone.

My Men's Group study was really good. We got carried away and lost track of time.

I must compliment you on your very thorough exegesis of those passages. You connect them quite well to support your views. Having said that, I disagree with that interpretation.

I'm hoping to make it home tonight, but that depends on the weather. Hope to visit tomorrow. Blessings, Brother.

 

[robycop3]

Respectfully, Brother, you haven't proven a thing. You say my views are guesswork, but I am not the one who has to change what the Scriptures actually say in order to make my case. As I've said before, I'll stick with what Jesus clearly said over your reinterpretations.

I'll stick with Scripture and reality together, as Scripture controls reality. And the reality is that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm on the road visiting relatives and didn't bring my laptop. If you don't mind, I will keep my answer short, as I am using my phone.

My Men's Group study was really good. We got carried away and lost track of time.

I must compliment you on your very thorough exegesis of those passages. You connect them quite well to support your views. Having said that, I disagree with that interpretation.

I'm hoping to make it home tonight, but that depends on the weather. Hope to visit tomorrow. Blessings, Brother.

Have safe travels home.. Iron sharpens iron. It is through discussions like this which caused me to go deeper into it that I have grown into what I am. We can always help each other.

Be blessed my brother.. This is a non salvic issue.

 

[robycop3]

I'm on the road visiting relatives and didn't bring my laptop. If you don't mind, I will keep my answer short, as I am using my phone.

My Men's Group study was really good. We got carried away and lost track of time.

I must compliment you on your very thorough exegesis of those passages. You connect them quite well to support your views. Having said that, I disagree with that interpretation.

I'm hoping to make it home tonight, but that depends on the weather. Hope to visit tomorrow. Blessings, Brother.

Have a safe journey. How hard Oaklee will hit depends upon how for north or south you live.

 

[37818]

There was no abomination of desolation (An idol or unclean thing placed in a holy place. in this case, the most holy or holy of holy's) in 70 AD. So that could not be the event which occurred in the middle of the 70th week.

I agree. Brings to mind 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, ". . . Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. . . ." This did not happen in 70AD. Now that means a Jewish temple is yet to be rebuilt in order for such a man of sin to make such a claim.

 

[Lodic]

="robycop3, post: 2771082, member: 5296"]I'll stick with Scripture and reality together, as Scripture controls reality. And the reality is that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred.

Then you would have to say Jesus is either mistaken or a liar, since He did tell His disciples THEY would see the events He spoke of.