What is Babylon?

[Lodic]

Have a safe journey. How hard Oaklee will hit depends upon how for north or south you live.

Thanks, Brother. I'm in the middle of Arkansas. We've decided to stay here tonight and go back home to Texas tomorrow.

 

[robycop3]

Then you would have to say Jesus is either mistaken or a liar, since He did tell His disciples THEY would see the events He spoke of.

No, He didn't. He said "THEY will see the Son of man coming...". And that'll be when the beast is in power. The "you"s refer to then-future readers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree. Brings to mind 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, ". . . Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. . . ." This did not happen in 70AD. Now that means a Jewish temple is yet to be rebuilt in order for such a man of sin to make such a claim.

Yes.

Many people believe since the temple was destroyed, that was the abomination of desolation.

If we look historically though. an abomination of desolation by defenition is an idol or unclean thing sitting in a holy place which renders it desolate or unclean.

 

[kyredneck]

If we look historically though. an abomination of desolation by defenition is an idol or unclean thing sitting in a holy place which renders it desolate or unclean.

If you looked scripturally as you claim to do but don't, it destroys this tale of fiction. AOD has already occurred. It's such a simple hermeneutic to compare scripture with scripture and let it interpret itself:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

The corollary passages show clearly that it's Roman armies that laid waste to Jerusalem, not Roman idols, and that occurred 66-70 AD, BEFORE that generation passed:

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

 

[Lodic]

No, He didn't. He said "THEY will see the Son of man coming...". And that'll be when the beast is in power. The "you"s refer to then-future readers.

The"they" of Rev 1:7 is the same generation as the disciples that Jesus spoke to in the Olivet Discourse. Note the phrase "even those who pierced Him". This could only mean 1st century Israel, who cried out for Barabbas to be released so Jesus could be crucified.

 

[robycop3]

If you looked scripturally as you claim to do but don't, it destroys this tale of fiction. AOD has already occurred. It's such a simple hermeneutic to compare scripture with scripture and let it interpret itself:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

The corollary passages show clearly that it's Roman armies that laid waste to Jerusalem, not Roman idols, and that occurred 66-70 AD, BEFORE that generation passed:

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

daniel wrote that the AOD would be PLACED and SET UP. We saw the first type of this when Antiochus Epiophanes placed and set up a statue of Zeus in the temple & sacrificed a pig on the altar. The Romans destroyed that temple; they didn't place & set up any statue in it.

But Jesus said to beware when the AOD mentioned by Daniel is seen, even adding "Let the reader understand". Understand WHAT? That the coming AOD will resemble the earlier one. That necessitates the building of a new temple. The difference in the coming AOD from the first one will be that, while Antiochus used a statue of Zeus, the beast/antichrist won't recognize any god but himself, & will therefore set up a statue of himself. And, insteada sacrificing a pig, he will stop all sacrifices. the generation that sees the beginning of these thiongs, that is, the man of sin's coming to power, will not pass away til all has been fulfilled.

 

[robycop3]

The"they" of Rev 1:7 is the same generation as the disciples that Jesus spoke to in the Olivet Discourse. Note the phrase "even those who pierced Him". This could only mean 1st century Israel, who cried out for Barabbas to be released so Jesus could be crucified.

No, those who pierced Him will see His return from hades. Jesus has NOT yet returned. Even you admit that much.

 

[Lodic]

No, those who pierced Him will see His return from hades. Jesus has NOT yet returned. Even you admit that much.

To see also means perceive or understand. Israel mourned when they realized Christ had "come" in judgement for crucifying Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you looked scripturally as you claim to do but don't, it destroys this tale of fiction. AOD has already occurred. It's such a simple hermeneutic to compare scripture with scripture and let it interpret itself:

lol.

You just lost any semblance of any normal conversation we could have had by one. Making a sly judgmental remark instead of just bringing your disagreement to light. I am dumbfounded why people of God feel they have to do this I pray in the future you lear to speak with humility as @Lodic has with me, so we can have a calm, brotherly discussion

Second, I will prove how you yourself, by failing to just look at scripture. Are doing what you claim I am doing.

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

First off, He said we would see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

1. The holy place is the Holy of Holy's
2. It is in the innermost part of the sanctuary.
3. It can not be seen by anyone standing outside the sanctuary.

second, we determine. what is an Abomination which causes desolation in a holy place?

1. By definition. An abomination of desolation is an Idol or Unclean things, which renders the holy place unclean or "desolate"
2. The first example of this can be seen when Antiochus Epiphanies entered the temple and slaughtered a pig in the holy place. Making it unclean. This act also caused the Maccabeean revold. Any one who studied history should be able to see this. In fact. Anyone who studied scripture could see this was prophesied
Daniel 11:31
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
3. Here we have the example. the historical perspective. the point we should look to when we look at the AOD of Dan 9, Dan 12 and Matt 24

In conclusion - No one could possibly see any idol. or abomination which causes desolation. standing in the holy place in AD 70. It just is not possible

as for this generation.

It is in context of the fig tree. when you see these things, know the end is near.

It is in context of THAT GENERATION in that time. that will not pass away until all those things have taken place. Up to and including THE RETURN OF CHRIST (vs 30-31) which has not happened yet.

So in niether case has any of the scripture you posted even occured yet. Let alone had the ability to be fulfilled (the AOD in the holy place)

which, by the way, Is completely possible today. hwere it was not possible in 70 AD'

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.

HER DESOLATION (Jerusalem)

this is not an abomination of desolation. This is Jesus warning them that what was prophesied in Dan 9, and predicted by Jesus himself (not one stone will be left) would happen. and when they saw the armies com, Flee, don;t come any where near Jerusalem, because Jerusalem was leveled. Historians after the destruction came to jerusalem and state it did not even look like a city was there. The only thing they saw was the wall of fortress antonia (which is sadly seen to day as the waiing wall of the temple)

The corollary passages show clearly that it's Roman armies that laid waste to Jerusalem, not Roman idols, and that occurred 66-70 AD, BEFORE that generation passed:

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Yep. they saw the risen Christ.

But it does not support your case.

You need to start at the beginning

the disciples asked three questions

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

1. When will these things be (references vs 2 - And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

2. What will be the sign of your coming (references the time of the end, right before he returns in the clouds, In this context, the great tribulation, which follows the birth pangs)

3. The signs of the end of the age) refers to the birth pangs, Nation rising against nation, Pestilence, Natural disasters, etc etc, Also includes the Abomination of desolation. Which is immediately followed by the great tribulation. Which immediately is cut short by the return of Christ for the sake of the elect (if he did not. no flesh would survive)

 

[robycop3]

lol.

You just lost any semblance of any normal conversation we could have had by one. Making a sly judgmental remark instead of just bringing your disagreement to light. I am dumbfounded why people of God feel they have to do this I pray in the future you lear to speak with humility as @Lodic has with me, so we can have a calm, brotherly discussion

Second, I will prove how you yourself, by failing to just look at scripture. Are doing what you claim I am doing.




First off, He said we would see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

1. The holy place is the Holy of Holy's
2. It is in the innermost part of the sanctuary.
3. It can not be seen by anyone standing outside the sanctuary.

second, we determine. what is an Abomination which causes desolation in a holy place?

1. By definition. An abomination of desolation is an Idol or Unclean things, which renders the holy place unclean or "desolate"
2. The first example of this can be seen when Antiochus Epiphanies entered the temple and slaughtered a pig in the holy place. Making it unclean. This act also caused the Maccabeean revold. Any one who studied history should be able to see this. In fact. Anyone who studied scripture could see this was prophesied
Daniel 11:31
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
3. Here we have the example. the historical perspective. the point we should look to when we look at the AOD of Dan 9, Dan 12 and Matt 24

In conclusion - No one could possibly see any idol. or abomination which causes desolation. standing in the holy place in AD 70. It just is not possible

as for this generation.

It is in context of the fig tree. when you see these things, know the end is near.

It is in context of THAT GENERATION in that time. that will not pass away until all those things have taken place. Up to and including THE RETURN OF CHRIST (vs 30-31) which has not happened yet.

So in niether case has any of the scripture you posted even occured yet. Let alone had the ability to be fulfilled (the AOD in the holy place)

which, by the way, Is completely possible today. hwere it was not possible in 70 AD'


HER DESOLATION (Jerusalem)

this is not an abomination of desolation. This is Jesus warning them that what was prophesied in Dan 9, and predicted by Jesus himself (not one stone will be left) would happen. and when they saw the armies com, Flee, don;t come any where near Jerusalem, because Jerusalem was leveled. Historians after the destruction came to jerusalem and state it did not even look like a city was there. The only thing they saw was the wall of fortress antonia (which is sadly seen to day as the waiing wall of the temple)



Yep. they saw the risen Christ.

But it does not support your case.

You need to start at the beginning

the disciples asked three questions

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

1. When will these things be (references vs 2 - And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

2. What will be the sign of your coming (references the time of the end, right before he returns in the clouds, In this context, the great tribulation, which follows the birth pangs)

3. The signs of the end of the age) refers to the birth pangs, Nation rising against nation, Pestilence, Natural disasters, etc etc, Also includes the Abomination of desolation. Which is immediately followed by the great tribulation. Which immediately is cut short by the return of Christ for the sake of the elect (if he did not. no flesh would survive)

The AOD will be when the antichrist sits in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & declares himself God, as per 2 Thess. 2, stopping the sacrifices performed there, as per Daniel, & set up a statue of himself in it, as per Rev. 13.

 

[kyredneck]

I am dumbfounded why people of God feel they have to do this I pray in the future you lear to speak with humility as @Lodic has with me, so we can have a calm, brotherly discussion

I'm dumbfounded at how some are so thin-skinned to be so easily offended on a debate forum. Perhaps they consider sanctimony to be a strategy in their debate.

Daniel 11:31
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Lol, how does this in any way refute what I posted in post #104?:

The corollary passages show clearly that it's Roman armies that laid waste to Jerusalem, not Roman idols, and that occurred 66-70 AD, BEFORE that generation passed:

Forces of Dan 11 = Armies of Lu 21

And where exactly is the sanctuary fortress and the daily sacrifices today? Long destroyed (read DESOLATED) by..... guess... Roman Armies in the war of AD 66-70....and that before that very generation passed, just as Jesus prophesied.

I'll stick with scripture and let it interpret itself:

the abomination of desolation = Jerusalem compassed with armies

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The AOD will be when the antichrist sits in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & declares himself God, as per 2 Thess. 2, stopping the sacrifices performed there, as per Daniel, & set up a statue of himself in it, as per Rev. 13.

Amen, It is all right there in scripture

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm dumbfounded at how some are so thin-skinned to be so easily offended on a debate forum. Perhaps they consider sanctimony to be a strategy in their debate.

Offended? I was not offended. I think however you should be offended for God and his people. That people who call Jesus by name have to resort to such prideful tactics.
I tend to see when people do that, it is because they do not have much faith in their own belief, so they use it as a tactic to try to puff themselves up.

Remember, God gives mercy to the humble, he will tear down the proud.

There was absolutely nothing edifying in that particular part of your response. It was just whatever mechanism you need to puff yourself up as all knowledgeable;e. And had nothign to do with our conversation.

Lol, how does this in any way refute what I posted in post #104?:

It has everything to do with it. You want me to see AD 70 and the time the AOD occurred. Nothing even remotely close to that passage happened in ad 70

Forces of Dan 11 = Armies of Lu 21

Um no. The armies from Luke will come from Rome, The forces in Dan 1 came from cypress (greece)

And where exactly is the sanctuary fortress and the daily sacrifices today? Long destroyed (read DESOLATED) by..... guess... Roman Armies in the war of AD 66-70....and that before that very generation passed, just as Jesus prophesied.

Yep. Just as prophesied.

I'll stick with scripture and let it interpret itself:

But your not sticking to scripture

the abomination of desolation = Jerusalem compassed with armies

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

This is wrong

In the Hebrews, an abomination is an unclean thing, an idol. Something that renders something unclean.

The holy place in not the whole temple. It was never a temple as a whole. It was the most holy place in that temple.

Titus nor his armies placed anything in the holy place in ad 70. No one jesus spoke to saw anything “standing” in the holy place in ad 70. The temple was destroyed.

So sorry my friend, If you claim you follow scripture. Yet claim the AOD of Matt 24 occured in 70 ad. Then something is wrong.

 

[kyredneck]

Offended? I was not offended. I think however you should be offended for God and his people. That people who call Jesus by name have to resort to such prideful tactics.
I tend to see when people do that, it is because they do not have much faith in their own belief, so they use it as a tactic to try to puff themselves up.

Remember, God gives mercy to the humble, he will tear down the proud.

There was absolutely nothing edifying in that particular part of your response. It was just whatever mechanism you need to puff yourself up as all knowledgeable;e. And had nothign to do with our conversation.

Egad. Enough of your sanctimony. I've no idea what 'prideful tactics' you're referring to.

It has everything to do with it. You want me to see AD 70 and the time the AOD occurred. Nothing even remotely close to that passage happened in ad 70

Yes, it absolutely did:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

Um no. The armies from Luke will come from Rome, The forces in Dan 1 came from cypress (greece)

Um, Cypress was a Roman province since 30 BC.

So sorry my friend, If you claim you follow scripture. Yet claim the AOD of Matt 24 occured in 70 ad. Then something is wrong.

I am following scripture:

Forces of Dan 11 = Armies of Lu 21

The abomination of desolation = Jerusalem compassed with armies

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Egad. Enough of your sanctimony. I've no idea what 'prideful tactics' you're referring to.

I did not think so. Doubt you ever will.

Yes, it absolutely did:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

Show me where they saw an abomination STANDING in a Holy place. Show me where they ALL saw an abomination standing in the holy place

Um, Cypress was a Roman province since 30 BC.

There was no abomination of desolation in 70 AD.so it was not the Roman armies

I am following scripture:

Forces of Dan 11 = Armies of Lu 21

The abomination of desolation = Jerusalem compassed with armies

Lol. Nope. You need to go back to history before 70 AD and find out what an abomination of desolation is.

 

[toocoolblue]

If you looked scripturally as you claim to do but don't, it destroys this tale of fiction. AOD has already occurred. It's such a simple hermeneutic to compare scripture with scripture and let it interpret itself:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Sir, you are more than entitled to your opinion about the meaning of scripture. But skipping over about 20 verses and then ignoring the verses that follow is way out of line. There is nothing you can't justify by this logic. In fact, the bible might as well not even exist by this line of thinking.

Let's look at a few things you left out of both the Matthew account and the Mark account.

What must happen first....
Mark 13 v10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Matthew 24 v14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Has this happened? No.

Mark 13v25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. v26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Matthew 24v29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 6 v12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;v13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. v14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Have the stars fallen? Are the heavens gone? Did every mountain and island get moved? No

This is just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to describing events that precede the second coming.

Here's a thought...

In the future, cars will get 100 miles per gallon and accelerate from 0 to 60 in 2 seconds. This car will be amazing.

When I said "This car", was I talking about a car from the future or right now?

When Jesus spoke an for entire chapter in Matthew and Mark about events that would happen to a future generation...was he continuing to speak in a future tense when he said, "This generation"?

Keeping in mind, the rules of 2022 grammar do not apply here. Just read Revelation, it continuously re-covers the same ground. It doesn't just start at one point and then move forward from there. It seems to loop back on itself several times.

 

[robycop3]

Sir, you are more than entitled to your opinion about the meaning of scripture. But skipping over about 20 verses and then ignoring the verses that follow is way out of line. There is nothing you can't justify by this logic. In fact, the bible might as well not even exist by this line of thinking.

Let's look at a few things you left out of both the Matthew account and the Mark account.

What must happen first....
Mark 13 v10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Matthew 24 v14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Has this happened? No.

Mark 13v25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. v26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Matthew 24v29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 6 v12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;v13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. v14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Have the stars fallen? Are the heavens gone? Did every mountain and island get moved? No

This is just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to describing events that precede the second coming.

Here's a thought...

In the future, cars will get 100 miles per gallon and accelerate from 0 to 60 in 2 seconds. This car will be amazing.

When I said "This car", was I talking about a car from the future or right now?

When Jesus spoke an for entire chapter in Matthew and Mark about events that would happen to a future generation...was he continuing to speak in a future tense when he said, "This generation"?

Keeping in mind, the rules of 2022 grammar do not apply here. Just read Revelation, it continuously re-covers the same ground. It doesn't just start at one point and then move forward from there. It seems to loop back on itself several times.

Hi!
We've also had several discussions about the abomination of desolation. The first example of it occurred in the 160s BC when the seleucid ruler of Judea, Antiochus Epiphanes, entered the temple with his men, set up a statue of Zeus in it, & sacrificed a pig on the altar. Jesus said, "When you see the AOD mentioned by Daniel" & added "Let the reader understand". He meant to watch for an event similar to the past one. Daniel had written that the AOD would be PLACED & SET UP, & that's what Antiochus did with the statue of Zeus. Thus, the AOD is to be placed & set up in the temple.

Now, nothing similar occurred in the old temple after Jesus' prophecy before the temple was razed. Thus, it'll occur in a future temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem. There's simply no getting by the fact that the AOD is future.

As for Babylon, we saw what happened when Saddam Hussein tried to rebuild it. But there are TWO falls of Babylon prophesied. The first one is past; the 2nd one hasn't occurred yet. But, the question is, WHAT IS THE 2ND BABYLON? It is NOT Jerusalem! Nowhere in Scripture is J called "Babylon". So, we must look for another place which was a headquarters for the murder & persecution of Christians. And that place is ROME, ITALY, the seat of the world's largest quasi/pseudo-Christian religion. While Jerusalem is guilty of many murders of the righteous, before and after Jesus' time, it hasn't done nearly as much as Rome & those under Rome's command, against Christians, and is still doing. Those under Rome's command have tried to prevent the spreading of the Gospel, tried to suppress the copying of God's word & its translation into many languages, spread a host of false doctrines, & claim to speak for God in all matters.

 

[kyredneck]

What must happen first....
Mark 13 v10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Matthew 24 v14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If you believe the scriptures, fulfilled before the NT was even completed. Before THAT GENERATION had passed away:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16

It was actually fulfilled at Pentecost, 'the gospel bomb':

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? Acts 2

Have the stars fallen? Are the heavens gone? Did every mountain and island get moved? No

Yes. It's called hyperbole. Take John the Baptist. Besides raising valleys, leveling mountains, grading the rough places, and straightening highways, he was also Elijah. Matthew 17:12-13.

You don't really believe that suns from other solar systems are going to fall to Earth, do you?

Here's a thought...

Here's a thought for all you wannabe modern day Bible prophets:

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies." Alfred Edersheim

 

[kyredneck]

When Jesus spoke an for entire chapter in Matthew and Mark about events that would happen to a future generation...was he continuing to speak in a future tense when he said, "This generation"?

Wrong. Christ was addressing the generation of His day, period. 'That generation' of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy some 1400 years earlier in the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32], which also is quoted from several times in the NT, and applied/addressed to 'that generation' in the latter days of the Old Covenant:.

Moses, prophesying of 'that generation' of Christ's day:

21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

Moses prophesied of that generation, "they are not his children".

Both John the Baptist and Christ called them "serpents and offspring of vipers". In another place Christ told them, "you are of your father the devil", and in the Apocalypse twice refers to them as "a synagogue of satan"

Moses prophesied of that generation, "They are a perverse and crooked generation.... they are a very perverse generation".

Christ called them "an evil generation", and on two occasions "An evil and adulterous generation".

Peter exhorted those devout Jews at Pentecost, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation".

Jewish historian Josephus, who was eyewitness to the miseries that befell that generation, recorded of them, "neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed."

Moses prophesied of that generation, "I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation".

Paul quotes him in reference to that generation, "I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you."

Moses prophesied of that generation, "evil will befall you in the latter days".

Christ's words from the Olivet Discourse are plain:
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

 

[robycop3]

If you believe the scriptures, fulfilled before the NT was even completed. Before THAT GENERATION had passed away:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16

It was actually fulfilled at Pentecost, 'the gospel bomb':

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? Acts 2



Yes. It's called hyperbole. Take John the Baptist. Besides raising valleys, leveling mountains, grading the rough places, and straightening highways, he was also Elijah. Matthew 17:12-13.

You don't really believe that suns from other solar systems are going to fall to Earth, do you?



Here's a thought for all you wannabe modern day Bible prophets:

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies." Alfred Edersheim

Sorry, Sir, but you have "pret disease" Since they can't show us in history that the prophesied events have already happened, they reduce the prophecies to "figurative/symbolic" status. And "falling stars" has long been a term for METEORS.