What is Biblical Humility & what is spiritual arrogance?

[quantumfaith]

I do not pretend to be nice, I FIGHT against what I consider error. I am not trying to be nice.

But my goal is not to convince others I am right. You may not believe that, but that does not interest me at all. Oh, I want to be right, and I pray constantly that the Lord would reveal his truths to me and keep me from error, but it is not that I desire to be superior to others. That doesn't interest me at all.

No, I want to know God's truth so that I will not be in error, and so that I could also tell others the truth. But I have no need for glory at all.

If you read the scriptures you will find many men who did not live like Jesus was Lord of their life, yet they were saved. Solomon married many wives and turned to idols, yet he was saved. David committed adultery with a married woman and had her innocent husband killed in battle. Noah got drunk after the flood and lay in his tent naked.

All Christians sin at one time or another, some live more holy lives than others, but it is impossible to truly know who is saved and who is not from appearance. If someone tells me they trusted Jesus Christ as their Saviour, I tend to believe them, even if their life is not perfect. Who am I to judge them?[/QUOTE]



Nail on the head WM. I would add that ALL believers even sin much more than "at one time or another", certainly much more than they project around here.

 

[Winman]

And there you have it. I would suggest that there are some others who see it this way as well. And this attitude is what causes offenses.

You are probably right. I have always been a fighter, I was always getting in scrapes in school when I was a kid. I didn't start fights, but I had a hard time walking away from one.

And this shows you do not understand what you call Lordship salvation. Although I have shown clear scripture and you ignored.

Maybe I do not understand what YOU call Lordship Salvation, but I am very familiar with the doctrine.

You say it is a relationship, OK, what does that mean?

Frankly, I have never met anyone who prayed to Jesus to save them who is flat out living for the devil. Oh, I have seen folks fall into sin, and I have fallen into sin myself many times, but these persons were always sorry and in time turned from that sin. And I know I regret and have asked for forgiveness for those times I have strayed.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are probably right. I have always been a fighter, I was always getting in scrapes in school when I was a kid. I didn't start fights, but I had a hard time walking away from one.



Maybe I do not understand what YOU call Lordship Salvation, but I am very familiar with the doctrine.

You say it is a relationship, OK, what does that mean?

Frankly, I have never met anyone who prayed to Jesus to save them who is flat out living for the devil. Oh, I have seen folks fall into sin, and I have fallen into sin myself many times, but these persons were always sorry and in time turned from that sin. And I know I regret and have asked for forgiveness for those times I have strayed.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

 

[Winman]

Nail on the head WM. I would add that ALL believers even sin much more than "at one time or another", certainly much more than they project around here.

I would be ashamed to confess all my sins here. I try to remember that before I label others "false converts".

 

[Winman]

Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Wow, you are looking directly at the truth and are completely oblivious to it.

What did these false converts boast of? WORKS.

They boasted that they prophesied in Jesus's name, cast out devils in Jesus's name, and did MANY MIGHTY WORKS in Jesus's name.

These false converts are Lordship Salvationists if there ever was one. It is even emphasized twice that they called Jesus, LORD, LORD.

It is right in front of you and you can't see it.

The Pharisee was exactly the same, he boasted that he was obedient to God, he kept the commandments.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What did the Pharisee boast of? His OBEDIENCE, his WORKS. And truth is, he really did keep the commandments to the best of his ability. The problem is, he trusted in himself that he had merited salvation by his obedience and despised sinners like the publican.

And the publicans were sinners, they were despised by the people because they overtaxed people under force of government and made themselves rich.

This poor publican made no boast of obedience to God or good works whatsoever, but simply cast himself on God's mercy. He had faith that God was loving and merciful.

And Jesus said this publican went down to his house justified, all his sins forgiven.

It is right in front of you, but you do not see it. These passages utterly refute Lordship Salvation and you do not recognize it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Wow, you are looking directly at the truth and are completely oblivious to it.

What did these false converts boast of? WORKS.

They boasted that they prophesied in Jesus's name, cast out devils in Jesus's name, and did MANY MIGHTY WORKS in Jesus's name.

These false converts are Lordship Salvationists if there ever was one. It is even emphasized twice that they called Jesus, LORD, LORD.

It is right in front of you and you can't see it.

The Pharisee was exactly the same, he boasted that he was obedient to God, he kept the commandments.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What did the Pharisee boast of? His OBEDIENCE, his WORKS. And truth is, he really did keep the commandments to the best of his ability. The problem is, he trusted in himself that he had merited salvation by his obedience and despised sinners like the publican.

And the publicans were sinners, they were despised by the people because they overtaxed people under force of government and made themselves rich.

This poor publican made no boast of obedience to God or good works whatsoever, but simply cast himself on God's mercy. He had faith that God was loving and merciful.

And Jesus said this publican went down to his house justified, all his sins forgiven.

It is right in front of you, but you do not see it. These passages utterly refute Lordship Salvation and you do not recognize it.

Your statement is false because your premise is false. Which is that Lordship is all about works. I know that is what you have decided that is what it is but you have it wrong.

You have still completely ignored Romans 10:9 that makes it clear. Calling Jesus Lord is not about being perfect or sinless. But it does mean that you cannot just call on Jesus for salvation and then live like you want to the rest of your life with no further thought about God.

 

[Winman]

Your statement is false because your premise is false. Which is that Lordship is all about works. I know that is what you have decided that is what it is but you have it wrong.

You have still completely ignored Romans 10:9 that makes it clear. Calling Jesus Lord is not about being perfect or sinless. But it does mean that you cannot just call on Jesus for salvation and then live like you want to the rest of your life with no further thought about God.

I know that Jesus was careful to point out that these false converts said LORD, LORD, twice. That seems completely lost on you.

Again, these are Lordship Salvationists if ever there was one.

 

[Revmitchell]

I know that Jesus was careful to point out that these false converts said LORD, LORD, twice.

Again, these are Lordship Salvationists if ever there was one.

And yet Paul wrote that if we will call Jesus Lord and believe he rose from the grave we will be saved.

 

[Winman]

And yet Paul wrote that if we will call Jesus Lord and believe he rose from the grave we will be saved.

Calling Jesus "Lord" is not a condition of salvation, although anyone who believes the scriptures must necessarily believe he is the Lord, which is, God.

Who do you think these easy believers are calling on?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

It is believing on Jesus that matters. Those false converts in Mat 7 called Jesus "Lord, Lord" and they were not saved, which completely refutes your view.

No, it is believing or depending on Jesus to save you that matters. These false converts depended on their obedience and good works to save them just like the Pharisee in Luke 18 and were lost.

The publican on the other hand completely cast himself in utter dependence upon God's mercy to save him. This is what it means to believe on Jesus, to depend on him, to rely on him, to lean on him only for salvation. And this man went down to his house forgiven.

Matthew 7 refutes your view.

 

[Revmitchell]

Calling Jesus "Lord" is not a condition of salvation, although anyone who believes the scriptures must necessarily believe he is the Lord, which is, God.

And yet the passage I quoted says otherwise.

Who do you think these easy believers are calling on?

I have never used that phrase so you will have to ask someone else.

It is believing on Jesus that matters.

That is such a vague statement who knows what it means. The demons believe on Jesus.

No, it is believing or depending on Jesus to save you that matters.

Again pretty vague

The publican on the other hand completely cast himself in utter dependence upon God's mercy to save him. This is what it means to believe on Jesus, to depend on him, to rely on him, to lean on him only for salvation. And this man went down to his house forgiven.

Not just for salvation but for all of life. Jesus said "he who will not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

Matthew 7 refutes your view.

Uh no

 

[Winman]

And yet the passage I quoted says otherwise.

Yes, but it also says you must believe on Jesus as do the following verses several times. Never again does it mention calling Jesus "Lord".

You are using the same argument as folks do with Mark 16:16;

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Many folks claim you have to be baptized to be saved because of this verse. But note the second half of the verse does not mention being baptized. In addition, there are many other verses that say you must believe to be saved that do not mention baptism.

The false converts in Mat 7 called Jesus "Lord" and they were obedient to do good works, yet they were not saved. This refutes your view.

I have never used that phrase so you will have to ask someone else.

Well, I assure you they are calling on the Lord Jesus. You must believe Jesus is the Son of God who rose from the dead to call on him, nobody calls on a dead person in the grave.

That is such a vague statement who knows what it means. The demons believe on Jesus.

No, that is not what scriptures say, it says they believe in God, HUGE difference.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils believe there is one God, how can they not? They stand before God and see him with their eyes.

But there is no promise to devils, Jesus died for men, not angels. They have no promise to rely or depend upon as men do. And this is why Limited Atonement is a horrible error. If Jesus did not die for all men, then no man has a warrant to believe on Jesus, they have no certain promise to depend upon.

Again pretty vague

It is not vague, the publican beat on his chest, he would not raise his eyes. He did not claim to deserve salvation but confessed he was a sinner. He cast himself completely on God's mercy. This is what the word "believe" means in the Bible, to trust, to depend, to rely, to lean upon.

It is like a person stuck on the 6th floor of a burning building. Firemen below call to him to jump, promising to catch him with a net. If the man believes the firemen he will jump. This is saving faith, it is utter dependence. It is letting go and trusting the firemen to catch you. Likewise, saving faith is letting go of all hopes of saving one's self, and casting yourself completely on Jesus. It is just like jumping out of that window and completely depending on the firemen below to catch you.

This is what the prodigal did, he cast himself completely on God and was saved.

Not just for salvation but for all of life. Jesus said "he who will not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

Uh no

Well, I believe you are mistaking being a disciple with being saved, they are not the same.

It is like the ten lepers Jesus healed, only one returned to thank him. But how many did he heal? TEN.

Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Many folks will sincerely call on Jesus and be saved as the ten lepers were, but only a few will serve as disciples. Those who do not serve will not receive rewards, but will be saved, so as by fire. Those who do serve will be rewarded in the next life.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, but ... Never again does it mention calling Jesus "Lord".

Really that is your argument?

You are using the same argument as folks do with Mark 16:16;

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ok well that is a whole other issue and not the same thing.

The false converts in Mat 7 called Jesus "Lord" and they were obedient to do good works, yet they were not saved. This refutes your view.

No it doesn't. Honestly I do not even understand the logic that lets you say such a thing.

Well, I assure you they are calling on the Lord Jesus. You must believe Jesus is the Son of God who rose from the dead to call on him, nobody calls on a dead person in the grave.

OK and how does their lives reflect a true conversion.

No, that is not what scriptures say,

Yea it is

it says they believe in God, HUGE difference.

Another set of logic I fail to understand.

The devils believe there is one God, how can they not? They stand before God and see him with their eyes.

But there is no promise to devils, Jesus died for men, not angels. They have no promise to rely or depend upon as men do. And this is why Limited Atonement is a horrible error. If Jesus did not die for all men, then no man has a warrant to believe on Jesus, they have no certain promise to depend upon.

Ok I am not a calvinist or a limited atonement guy. You will have to deal with the cals on that.

It is not vague, the publican beat on his chest, he would not raise his eyes. He did not claim to deserve salvation but confessed he was a sinner. He cast himself completely on God's mercy. This is what the word "believe" means in the Bible, to trust, to depend, to rely, to lean upon.

Well that certainly makes your position more clear and just how does that very heart felt attitude affect the life of a person beyond wanting salvation?

Well, I believe you are mistaking being a disciple with being saved, they are not the same.

No they are not but they are on the same coin. "He who will not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me"

It is like the ten lepers Jesus healed, only one returned to thank him. But how many did he heal? TEN.

I do not know why you believe that is relevant.

Many folks will sincerely call on Jesus and be saved as the ten lepers were, but only a few will serve as disciples. Those who do not serve will not receive rewards, but will be saved, so as by fire. Those who do serve will be rewarded in the next life.

This is where we part company. If you are not a disciple you are not saved.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


Mat_10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

 

[Winman]

Really that is your argument?

You are using the exact argument that folks like the Church of Christ use with Mark 16:16 to teach that you must be baptized to be saved.

Mark 16:16 itself does not mention having to call Jesus "Lord", it says you must "believe" to be saved.

Ok well that is a whole other issue and not the same thing.

No, you are interpreting scripture in the same exact manner they are, except you are making it a condition to call Jesus "Lord" to be saved. The persons in Matt 7 called Jesus "Lord", in fact it is emphasized, twice Jesus said they said, "Lord, Lord". That is EMPHASIS. Yet they were not saved, they were false converts.

No it doesn't. Honestly I do not even understand the logic that lets you say such a thing.

Actually, it does. They called Jesus "Lord" and they obeyed him. The prophesied in his name, they cast out devils in his name, they did MANY mighty works in his name. They were obedient, they served Jesus. But they were not saved because they depended on their obedience and works, and did not trust Jesus alone to save them.

OK and how does their lives reflect a true conversion.

Their life may not reflect conversion, just as Lot's and Samson's life did not seem to reflect conversion outwardly to others, but they were both saved.

Yea it is

No, the devils believe there is one God. They have no promise that Jesus died for their sins and that if they believe this they will be saved.

Another set of logic I fail to understand.

Believing in God is not the same as trusting in Jesus. Muslims believe in God, the Mormons believe in God, but neither trust Jesus to save them.

Ok I am not a calvinist or a limited atonement guy. You will have to deal with the cals on that.

Fine, but the point is, the devils have no promise, there is no warrant for them to believe on Jesus, Jesus did not die for them.

We are believing a "promise". Jesus said if we come to him, he will not cast us out. That is a promise. Jesus made no such promise to the devils.

Well that certainly makes your position more clear and just how does that very heart felt attitude affect the life of a person beyond wanting salvation?

Well, I know that immediately I was filled with love and gratitude to Jesus, and since that day I have wanted to please him, not out of compulsion, but out of love. And I am sure others feel the same way.

No they are not but they are on the same coin. "He who will not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me"

Well, there is a difference between disciples and simple believers. Many people like the nine unthankful lepers get cleansed (representing sin) and then go their way. They will not receive rewards in the next life.

I do not know why you believe that is relevant.

This story shows that many who get saved do not become disciples. They should, it is certainly not a good thing that they are not thankful, but they were cleansed and made whole nevertheless. It deals directly with what we are discussing this very moment.

This is where we part company. If you are not a disciple you are not saved.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


Mat_10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Well, I would disagree. The scriptures tell us of men who's works will be burnt up, but they will be saved nevertheless.

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Every man's works will be made manifest. If a person has done works that abide, he shall receive a reward.

And what can a man do in this life that will continue over into the next? Why, the only thing he can do is bring others to Christ. These persons will come over into the next life with him.

But if the saved person wastes his life and does not bring others to Christ, all his works in this life will be burnt up, he will suffer loss. Nevertheless, he will be saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, I would disagree. The scriptures tell us of men who's works will be burnt up, but they will be saved nevertheless.

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Every man's works will be made manifest. If a person has done works that abide, he shall receive a reward.

And what can a man do in this life that will continue over into the next? Why, the only thing he can do is bring others to Christ. These persons will come over into the next life with him.

But if the saved person wastes his life and does not bring others to Christ, all his works in this life will be burnt up, he will suffer loss. Nevertheless, he will be saved.

OK well this is a pretty serious error and just as grievous as some things cals hold to. I am not sure we have enough in common to have a foundation on which to have a discussion.

Take Care and God Bless

 

[Winman]

OK well this is a pretty serious error and just as grievous as some things cals hold to. I am not sure we have enough in common to have a foundation on which to have a discussion.

Take Care and God Bless

Well, just take a penknife and cut those verses out of your Bible. :thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Salvation requires more than mere belief. If not, then the deomns who trembled and believed would have been saved, too. Salvation also requires repentance to go along with belief. Jesus stated "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." This is in Luke 13:3,5. It also requires one to surrender their life to Him, to deny theirself, and follow after Him.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, just take a penknife and cut those verses out of your Bible. :thumbs:

I will add just one more thing. Those verses do not mean what you would like them to mean and your position is unorthodox. Something to consider.

 

[Revmitchell]

Salvation requires more than mere belief. If not, then the deomns who trembled and believed would have been saved, too. Salvation also requires repentance to go along with belief. Jesus stated "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." This is in Luke 13:3,5. It also requires one to surrender their life to Him, to deny theirself, and follow after Him.

That is right and pretty elementary.

 

[convicted1]

That is right and pretty elementary.

Well, some people say I do act childish sometimes.....just being consistent... :laugh:

 

[Winman]

Salvation requires more than mere belief. If not, then the deomns who trembled and believed would have been saved, too. Salvation also requires repentance to go along with belief. Jesus stated "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." This is in Luke 13:3,5. It also requires one to surrender their life to Him, to deny theirself, and follow after Him.

The devils have no promise to believe, Jesus became a man and died for men only.

Believing in God will not save you, you must believe on Jesus alone to save you.

Jhn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

And you are misrepresenting Luke 13. These folks were of the belief that they were righteous, because no bad thing had happened to them. Because other men had been killed by Pilate, and others a wall fell upon them, they believed these unfortunate people were exceedingly wicked sinners that God punished.

Jesus told them they must repent of this false belief or they would also perish. They needed to repent of their self righteousness and sincerely acknowledge that they also were sinners in danger of damnation.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus tells us what these persons must repent of. He asks, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all Galilaeans? And then he asks, Think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

So, Jesus is not telling them they have to stop sinning to be saved, no man completely stops sinning.

He was telling them they must realize they are sinners just like these persons were and if they do not repent they will perish.

No man will come to Jesus for forgiveness unless he realizes he is a lost sinner. That is what Jesus was teaching here.