I haven't read this so I don't know. I do know that you and your side have given no Scripture in support of the idea that election comes after faith.
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What is calvinism?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
You're right. I don't recall reading any Scripture stating that everyone, jew or gentile, become believing jews (The Elect...Romans 9:6) after faith.Pastor Larry said:
Your side has not (nor can it) supply Scripture stating that we are "elected" TO salvation prior to faith in Christ. If you could (or those before you), this issue of calvinism / arminianism would be well dead by now.
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Actually, webdog, I have given three passages that explicitly say that election comes before faith: Eph 1:4 where election is from before the foundation of the world; 2 Thes 2:13 where election is from teh beginning; and 2 tim 2:10 where election is prior to salvation. In all three cases, only a gross twisting of language can deny that election comes before faith, unless you want to argue that someone can believe before they exist, which still won't deal with 2 Tim 2:10.
So since you have solved the entire cal / arm debate single handedly...why is there still a debate? Probably because your interpretation of Scripture is done through a certain theological bend...Pastor Larry said:
Eph 1:4 for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love
This does not show that we are elected unto salvation, but we are chosen IN Christ. One is only "in Christ" after faith.
2Th 2:13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
If anything this verse shows those chosen for salvation are done so through belief in the truth after the work of the Holy Spirit...not prior to belief.
2Ti 2:10 This is why I endure all things for the elect: so that they also may obtain salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
This verse is dealing with true Israel (The Elect), and says nothing of election unto salvation prior to faith in Christ. If election meant irresistable grace, there would be no "may obtain salvation" in the text.
There has been some gross twisting of Scripture, all right...
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2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
And you guys say Paul was the first Calvinist. :laugh:
They will obtain salvation because they are elect, not because of Paul's enduring anything, right?
And you guys say Paul was the first Calvinist. :laugh:
They will obtain salvation because they are elect, not because of Paul's enduring anything, right?
Foreknowledge of people.
There isn't much debate about election being before faith. Most people agree because it is so clear in Scripture. Usually the tactic is to say that they elect because God knows they will eventually believe. That doesn't solve the whole problem, but it is different than those who argue that election comes after faith.
How does being "in Christ" differ from being saved? And how does that fit with "before the foundation of the world"?
If this is true, then how are they chosen "from the beginning"? Was the Holy Spirit at work to bring belief from "the beginning" when they didn't even exist? Obviously not. That is absurd. Here, the choosing takes place from the beginnning. It is a choosing "for salvation" (not after they have been saved). And the setting apart of the Spirit and the faith in the truth are the result of the choosing.
This isn't talking about Israel. It is talking about those who were chosen for salvation. The fact that Paul says he endures things so that the elect will be saved, shows that they are elect before they believe. Your lack of understanding of the subjunctive aspect is contributing to your misuse of this verse. Notice how you have to twist it to get it to support you.
And that is why I am trying to correct it by pointing out the words of the text and their relationships to each other.
Huh? If the verse means what I think you want it to mean, wouldn't Paul have said, "I endure all things for the sake of all mankind, that those who choose to believe may also obtain election...etc..." It's pretty clear from the verse that they were elect before Paul endured anything.Blammo said:
Paul was enduring for the sake of the elect. He was being obedient in spreading the Gospel, just as we all should be, for the sake of the elect. I think the bigger question is, "Can God reach the elect without our help?" Sure, but that's no excuse for our disobedience, and it does not glorify God for us to be complacent.
Both are reasons. The reason why Paul is enduring the persecution is because of his belief that there are elect who will be saved when they hear the message of Christ and respond to it in faith. In this verse, it is clear that they are elect prior to their having salvation. This verse confirms the apostolic teaching that elect is not synonymous with having salvation, that people were elect prior to salvation, and that the preaching of the gospel was necessary for the elect to be saved.
It doesn't. If you are in Christ you are saved.
Is not Christ the One slain from before the foundation of the world? If we are in Him, it seems self explanatory.
See above reply.
I don't believe it's saying that. We are chosen based on the drawing of the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ. It's a simple reading of the text.
Was Christ really slain before the foundation of the world or not?Paul, as a believing jew (an Elect), had a special place in his heart for the jews. See Romans. He is speaking about Israel.
Notice how you subtly added the above bolded, when the text states "may obtain". It's not a given as you imply, it's not "irresistable".
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Exactly, so when it says he chose us in him (meaning Christ), it means he chose us to be saved.
But the text says that the choosing is before the foundation of the world, not the slaying. Furthermore, if Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, doesn’t that mean that Adam had to sin?
It didn’t make sense there either.
Which text are you reading? The text I am looking at says we were chosen from before the foundation of the world. How is the Holy Spirit drawing people through faith in Christ before those people exist?
How is that relevant? That is not the topic here.
No, he’s not. That is not in the text. He is speaking of the elect, in the places he was going about preaching and getting persecuted. Those places were both Jews and Gentiles, not the elect. Furthermore, Acts 9:35 declares that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. This is not a Jewish passage.
As I pointed out, this is because you don’t understand the subjunctive aspect in Greek. It is a statement of what will happen. What does it mean to be elect, if they only “might” get saved? If you understand the grammar, you see it is saying just what I am pointing out.
They are not randomly selected. They are elected according to God's gracious purposes, which he has not revealed to us other than "that we should be the praise of the glory of his grace." It is clearly not "all people" and foreknowledge is never said about something about the people. It is said to be people.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Webdog
Wow webdog.
That is awesome. That has been revealed to you by God.
It is like the tree God is going to save the tree. If we abide in Him He will abide in us. If we do not abide, we are good for nothing but the fire
It is the tree that God has predestined before the foundation of the world and all who remain in it.
For God say's if they do not persist in thier unbelief He would graft them in again.
Our dependance is in Jesus. He is the head and we are the body. It is a shame of those who just can't put thier faith in Jesus thier only hope.
The hidden church has been revealed through Jesus.
Jesus is the only one who can remove this veil we have made.
Wow webdog.
That is awesome. That has been revealed to you by God.
It is like the tree God is going to save the tree. If we abide in Him He will abide in us. If we do not abide, we are good for nothing but the fire
It is the tree that God has predestined before the foundation of the world and all who remain in it.
For God say's if they do not persist in thier unbelief He would graft them in again.
Our dependance is in Jesus. He is the head and we are the body. It is a shame of those who just can't put thier faith in Jesus thier only hope.
The hidden church has been revealed through Jesus.
Jesus is the only one who can remove this veil we have made.
No, it means in Christ we are chosen.
The Bible says both.
It means God is omniscient.
Then you are blind to it. I pray God reveals it to you...
2 Thess. 2:13
It is. I'm showing the reason why one is chosen "before the foundation of the world". We are "in" the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Because he was the apostle to the gentiles means he cannot have a special place in his heart for his people? Were churches not made up of jewish and gentile believers?
Hey Larry,
Got a couple of minutes -- glad to see we're still "engaged" on the issues.
To US belief takes place in time -- just like the "called" in Rom 8:30. But GOD can know it before it happens -- before creation.
The pastor I heard, BTW, put it this way -- that the elect are those who are "continuing to be saved." No. They are continuing to be sanctified. And this man had a radio show on Christian radio!
Larry, your "model" is incorrect. You would have the totally depraved indwelt/regenerated by the Spirit of sanctification BEFORE they are even justified -- committed to God. The statement you thus made is "muddled." "people were chosen for salvation, which comes through the setting apart of the Spirit for salvation and the belief in the truth for salvation." You make belief and set apart as simultaneous. It's not. Belief comes first along with repentance unto justification. From belief we CAN obey God and repent. THEN we are set apart by and to the Spirit.
You have a sanctification pattern for salvation which pattern does not exist in the gospel. God never said we are to work our way to salvation. He said believe, obey, and then work (be sanctified). Maybe it would help if you described your understanding of sanctification -- where is begins, what it consists of, Who is responsible for it (Preservation of the saints, right?), how the "elect" accomplish it. Let me offer one other thing before you respond on this. It is true that the OT saints were being sanctified by obeying the law, the feasts, the offerings. They were being sanctified in the PHYSICAL sense. NT saints are sanctified in both the physical and SPIRITUAL senses by the Holy Spirit. Not just obedience but understanding ("the mind of Christ").
skypair
Got a couple of minutes -- glad to see we're still "engaged" on the issues.
I don't think so, Larry. Where'd you get that?? We know that the soul is spiritual -- we know that man dies immediately upon sinning (you confess this or so you suggest by your question). Even cults say the soul only sleeps. And I am sure you believe that the soul goes to heaven upon death. Again -- where are you getting that information??Pastor Larry said:
OK, you're agreeing that it happens BEFORE but that is not "chronological?" I can't imagine what you are saying.
First -- it is EVERYTHING that is foreknown by God. Do you see by your response how Calvinism limits God's omniscience??
To US belief takes place in time -- just like the "called" in Rom 8:30. But GOD can know it before it happens -- before creation.
No to that last. "Setting apart to salvation" is called JUSTIFICATION, Larry. Remember I cited Col 1:13 where once we are justified, God translates us into the kingdom of Christ? Traslates us for what? To be sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is "phase 2" of salvation, "phase 3" being glorification, right?
Oh, indeed it is! But don't think Calvin let is go. Nope, in his and Reform's hurry to create the "sacralist" kingdom of God on earth, they (like the Catholics), dispensed with the formalities of justification and made everyone who would be baptized and join the church the "elect."
The pastor I heard, BTW, put it this way -- that the elect are those who are "continuing to be saved." No. They are continuing to be sanctified. And this man had a radio show on Christian radio!
As long as the "choosing" part is the believer's choosing, I could agree. But the Spirit doesn't "sanctify" anyone who is not already saved by faith. And He doesn't "set apart" anyone for salvation. He draws them. Just like Eleazer drew Rebecca, sight unseen, to wed Isaac. But He doesn't indwell the unjustified.
Larry, your "model" is incorrect. You would have the totally depraved indwelt/regenerated by the Spirit of sanctification BEFORE they are even justified -- committed to God. The statement you thus made is "muddled." "people were chosen for salvation, which comes through the setting apart of the Spirit for salvation and the belief in the truth for salvation." You make belief and set apart as simultaneous. It's not. Belief comes first along with repentance unto justification. From belief we CAN obey God and repent. THEN we are set apart by and to the Spirit.
You have a sanctification pattern for salvation which pattern does not exist in the gospel. God never said we are to work our way to salvation. He said believe, obey, and then work (be sanctified). Maybe it would help if you described your understanding of sanctification -- where is begins, what it consists of, Who is responsible for it (Preservation of the saints, right?), how the "elect" accomplish it. Let me offer one other thing before you respond on this. It is true that the OT saints were being sanctified by obeying the law, the feasts, the offerings. They were being sanctified in the PHYSICAL sense. NT saints are sanctified in both the physical and SPIRITUAL senses by the Holy Spirit. Not just obedience but understanding ("the mind of Christ").
skypair