What is Catholicism?

[Titus Tarnum]

One last question about Heb 10:27: ask yourself, after you were saved did you ever commit a deliberate willful sin? If you say no, I would say you're probably a liar and you just sinned. We all sin with our minds or with our hands and if there is no more sacrifice but only judgment and condemnation then we are all doomed. It means we must be sinless after we are saved and that Christ's sacrifice only covered sin prior to our conversion. Being sinless on our own is impossible so it must mean something else or it must be spoken about someone else. The judgment spoken of would have to be about people who ignore the knowledge of the truth and go back to their old ways. Having the knowledge of the truth doesn't make them saved so these people would be contrasted to The Hebrew church who had faith.

What do we do when we sin; I myself regret my sin even while I am committing it, then I beat myself up over it and I ask for forgiveness, but more importantly what does God do when we sin? Does God kick you out of His house or does He admonish you or punish you until you repent and change your ways? No sacrifice involved; God only wants a change of heart. Psalms 51:17


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[atpollard]

A short study online reveals that the one of the uses of the Holy Eucharist in the Sacrifice of Mass in the Roman Catholic Church is to remit venial sin. The idea that my sins pile up and need the re-application of Christ's sacrifice is in opposition to Hebrews
Heb 10 1-4, NKJV. For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin.

When I am before God the Father He doesn't see my sin, only Christ blood applied to me once in my past. If Christ's blood is used to remove sins from me again, whether or not it is a mystical re-visitation of Christ's original sacrifice, that would mean the first covering didn't cover me and in a sense this mirrors the words of Hebrews 10. Christ covering on me would also need to cover my future sins because though I haven't committed them and I don't know that i'll do, God can still see them since He is omniscient. God can't see my sin because ALL of them are covered and if they're not, that would put me back to a pre-salvation "look" in God's eyes. This idea is the root of "eternal security".

I believe the main focus of The Book of Hebrews was to address the practice of systematic sin remediation being performed by the Hebrew Christians, which was the beginnings of the Sacrifice of Mass (and other sacraments) seen in the early Catholic Church as early as Justin Martyr's First Apology 154 A.D. It's likely this system had been growing and evolving since before The Book of Hebrews was written anywhere between 63-100 A.D.

I believe the writer is trying to explain the permanence of Christ's sacrifice to Hebrews that were attempting to use rituals as a replacement sacrificial system (like the Sacrifice of Mass is) Hebrews 5:11 shows that these Hebrews didn't have a good grasp of Christian doctrine and in 6:1-5 right before his warning in 6:6 it sounds like they were trying as a church to use rituals as a system of sin remediation:

6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,— NASB

The writer then explains this is like sacrificing Christ again (vs 6+) but that "we" are convinced of better things about them vs. 9.

I have to admit that it makes me a little uncomfortable to defend beliefs that are not my own (I am not a Catholic), but I think from the EWTN explanation that they would agree that all sins were "forgiven" by the blood and at the cross. Let me ask you this, as a Christian, would you LIKE a reassurance from God that some specific sin that you may have recently confessed really was forgiven at the cross if He offered an opportunity for you to obtain such a reassurance while you were still alive? Whether or not you accept the invitation to hear God reassure you will not change the REALITY of your forgiveness, it will just put your mind at ease (and God wants you to KNOW that He has forgiven your sin).

So the Mass is an opportunity to return to the foot of the cross and find reassurance that Christ loved you more than His own life and that your sin really is forgiven because of His Body (broken for YOU) and His blood (shed for YOU). As Baptists, it is what we do "symbolically" to remind us of a spiritual reality that ties us to Christ both in the grave and in His future Glory. As Catholics, they appear to do it "metaphysically" to link themselves spiritually to the same Christ and the same crucifixion and resurrection.

There are many points of tension between Baptists and Catholics, but I think the "Sacrifice of the Mass" is closer to one of "semantics".

 

[Titus Tarnum]

I have to admit that it makes me a little uncomfortable to defend beliefs that are not my own (I am not a Catholic), but I think from the EWTN explanation that they would agree that all sins were "forgiven" by the blood and at the cross. Let me ask you this, as a Christian, would you LIKE a reassurance from God that some specific sin that you may have recently confessed really was forgiven at the cross if He offered an opportunity for you to obtain such a reassurance while you were still alive? Whether or not you accept the invitation to hear God reassure you will not change the REALITY of your forgiveness, it will just put your mind at ease (and God wants you to KNOW that He has forgiven your sin).

So the Mass is an opportunity to return to the foot of the cross and find reassurance that Christ loved you more than His own life and that your sin really is forgiven because of His Body (broken for YOU) and His blood (shed for YOU). As Baptists, it is what we do "symbolically" to remind us of a spiritual reality that ties us to Christ both in the grave and in His future Glory. As Catholics, they appear to do it "metaphysically" to link themselves spiritually to the same Christ and the same crucifixion and resurrection.

There are many points of tension between Baptists and Catholics, but I think the "Sacrifice of the Mass" is closer to one of "semantics".

Thecatholicspirit.com
the Eucharist and the forgiveness of sins

One of the greatest blessings and least known facts about the Eucharist is that, in the reception of holy Communion, a person’s venial sins are forgiven.
The Eucharist is one of four sacraments that imparts the forgiveness of sins. The waters of baptism wash away all prior sins. Both sacraments of healing — reconciliation and anointing — also grant forgiveness. The sacrament of reconciliation grants the absolution of both mortal and venial sins, and it offers God’s pardon and peace. And the instruction to the sacrament of anointing says, “If they have committed any sins, their sins will be forgiven them” (see Jas 5:15).

This doesn't sound like the system you defended...


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[atpollard]

This doesn't sound like the system you defended...

Which I cannot explain.
I can only note that the EWTN Article described it differently.
I leave it to a Catholic to sort out the fine details.

 

[Yeshua1]

Will God the father sit in one throne and God the Son sit an another throne in heaven?
At the right hand of the father!

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[Yeshua1]

You did not answer my questions.
There is only one God whoes Name is Yahweh, meaning the Existent, and there is no other God. The distinct Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are that one and the same God. Also there is how the Son is with the God. The Son is both.

All 3 of Them are equally "the God"

 

[Yeshua1]

So venial sins aren't remitted at the sacrifice of the mass?


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Per Rome, yes they are!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe in the Trinity but I kind of agree with 37818 because of God's existence being eternal. I can't draw it but imagine a circle and in that circle is eternity, God is the circle and encompasses everything. God has three distinct aspects and I don't believe He can live without any of them just like we can't live without the different aspects that make up ourselves. So, if God the father is eternal and God the Son is eternal and the Holy Spirit is eternal they can't be separate in the sense that one eternal thing can't coexist with another eternal thing separately. Something can't be eternal in one part of the circle and you are eternal in another part of the circle because then I am not eternal in your section. All three aspects of God are eternal, without beginning or end, so they are one encompassing everything like you (vaguely) have a body soul and spirit and these three parts make up the one you. What do you think, did I nail it[emoji3]


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3 Persons equally God, as God is One Being!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here's another thought seeing how I am throwing all caution to the wind, if God is eternal how can He be contained on a throne? What about heaven; is heaven bigger than God seeing how God lives in it? My answer to this is what we will see in heaven is a representation of the eternal God for our benefit, and if heaven contains God it would have to be eternal and never ending like God, so it would have to be an aspect of God. If light has always existed like God has always existed then light would have to be an aspect of God.
This really doesn't address the subject matter "what is Catholicism" sorry it's just out there[emoji848]

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Think that is God speaking down us in terminology that we can relate to!

 

[Yeshua1]

Three distince Persons and them being the one and the same God is nothing like one person having a body, soul and spirit. The three Persons each are distinct Persons in Spirit, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, but are also one and the same Spirit being the one and the same God, John 4:24, Isaiah 43:10-11.

Right now, are there 3 Persons as One God in Heaven?

 

[Yeshua1]

Thecatholicspirit.com
the Eucharist and the forgiveness of sins

One of the greatest blessings and least known facts about the Eucharist is that, in the reception of holy Communion, a person’s venial sins are forgiven.
The Eucharist is one of four sacraments that imparts the forgiveness of sins. The waters of baptism wash away all prior sins. Both sacraments of healing — reconciliation and anointing — also grant forgiveness. The sacrament of reconciliation grants the absolution of both mortal and venial sins, and it offers God’s pardon and peace. And the instruction to the sacrament of anointing says, “If they have committed any sins, their sins will be forgiven them” (see Jas 5:15).

This doesn't sound like the system you defended...


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Nor does it sound like the true Gospel!

 

[Yeshua1]

Which I cannot explain.
I can only note that the EWTN Article described it differently.
I leave it to a Catholic to sort out the fine details.

Just leave it as being rank heresy at worst, or outright error at best!

 

[Yeshua1]

One last question about Heb 10:27: ask yourself, after you were saved did you ever commit a deliberate willful sin? If you say no, I would say you're probably a liar and you just sinned. We all sin with our minds or with our hands and if there is no more sacrifice but only judgment and condemnation then we are all doomed. It means we must be sinless after we are saved and that Christ's sacrifice only covered sin prior to our conversion. Being sinless on our own is impossible so it must mean something else or it must be spoken about someone else. The judgment spoken of would have to be about people who ignore the knowledge of the truth and go back to their old ways. Having the knowledge of the truth doesn't make them saved so these people would be contrasted to The Hebrew church who had faith.

What do we do when we sin; I myself regret my sin even while I am committing it, then I beat myself up over it and I ask for forgiveness, but more importantly what does God do when we sin? Does God kick you out of His house or does He admonish you or punish you until you repent and change your ways? No sacrifice involved; God only wants a change of heart. Psalms 51:17


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Jesus died and paid for all of our sins!

 

[utilyan]

Next In Chapter 7-8, the writer goes on to explain that they don't need their own priest because Christ is their perfect priest of the New Covenant.
Another crucial verse is 10:26 which to me smoothly ties into what I believe the writer is trying to say; that they're ignorant and they need to stop doing what they're doing, have faith and move on. 10:39. Prior to verse 10:26 though notice another reference that there isn't a sacrifice anymore;
Heb 10:17, 18 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.— NASB

This verse doesn't say they don't have sin and don't need a sacrifice, it says (indirectly) that the sacrifice was made and because if it God ignores the sin.
In contrast:
Heb 10:26, 27: For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries— NASB

In the space of 10 versus the writer says twice that there is no more sacrifice for sin. The first time in vs. 18 it is said in a positive way and the second in vs. 27 it is said in a negative way, but in either case it proves that Christ was the last sacrifice for sin. To me 10:26, 27 sounds like the writer is telling them "if you keep doing these rituals (go on sinning deliberately) after I've told you what you're doing is wrong (You received the knowledge of the truth) you're going to be judged for it.

10:35, 36: Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. — NASB (Resurrection)


Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.— NASB

In 10:39 the writer points out that they have faith and this differentiates them from the others who shrink back and are destroyed. If they ignored his teachings and continued to use rituals in an attempt to remove their sin they would be those that are shrinking back into their old ways that the Hebrews were used to. Two different types of people, two different reasons why there is no longer a sacrifice for sin. The first reason is because you have faith and God chooses not to remember your sins, and the second reason is that God no longer excepts any other sacrifice other than Jesus Christ.
So that's my take on Hebrews; it's not explaining how someone loses their salvation but instead it's explaining the mechanics of Christ priesthood, and it specifically warns against attempting to re-sacrifice Jesus Christ by constructing a sacrificial system.


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Eucharist was established by Jesus Christ. Just like Baptism they are done independently of scripture. The Apostles for example don't baptize because it is written in the bible.......its written in the bible because they baptize.

Same goes for communion far older then the written new testament.

What the Eucharist "can do" far exceeds, we are suppose to believe the in actual REAL PRESENCE of God. That is 100% God, actual God.

Keep in Mind we don't share an OBSESSION with SALVATION, like some folks. Some folks have this survival idolatry where preserving their immortality at all costs is the absolute focus. Where GEE what exactly is the BARE MINIMUM for God not to KILL ME.

This attitude we would consider disgusting and pathetic, the subject we are whining about now deflects from the sincere genuine love of God and neighbor.

We are bombarded with folks letting us know, Loving God and Loving Neighbor is not going to earn you salvation. I think those folks are missing out on the HIGHEST REWARD THERE IS-----> Loving God and Loving Neighbor.

Its always a SELFISH reason well what am I going to get out of it. Loving GOD doesn't earn me salvation, LOVING GOD doesn't even earn 5$.

We CATHOLICS believe this attitude is toxic, its like spitting in the face of God. We see it post after post. The ironic thing is we get damned for this, I serve a devil pope, I worship a mary goddess, I worship statues, Our doctrines are evil.

We still say to ourselves these are still our brothers and sisters in Christ they just mixing up their priorities.

Why isn't the priority how to love God and neighbor? Instead the SELFISH priority is HOW DO I SAVE MY OWN ASS!?

 

[37818]

Right now, are there 3 Persons as One God in Heaven?

Yes and no. Hosea 11:9, ". . . for I am God, and not man; . . ." Malachi 3:6, ". . . For I am the LORD, I change not; . . ." 1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . ."

 

[atpollard]

Eucharist was established by Jesus Christ. Just like Baptism they are done independently of scripture. The Apostles for example don't baptize because it is written in the bible.......its written in the bible because they baptize.

Same goes for communion far older then the written new testament.

What the Eucharist "can do" far exceeds, we are suppose to believe the in actual REAL PRESENCE of God. That is 100% God, actual God.

Some good points in this part (given Catholic assumptions about literal presence).

Keep in Mind we don't share an OBSESSION with SALVATION, like some folks. Some folks have this survival idolatry where preserving their immortality at all costs is the absolute focus. Where GEE what exactly is the BARE MINIMUM for God not to KILL ME.

This attitude we would consider disgusting and pathetic, the subject we are whining about now deflects from the sincere genuine love of God and neighbor.

We are bombarded with folks letting us know, Loving God and Loving Neighbor is not going to earn you salvation. I think those folks are missing out on the HIGHEST REWARD THERE IS-----> Loving God and Loving Neighbor.

Its always a SELFISH reason well what am I going to get out of it. Loving GOD doesn't earn me salvation, LOVING GOD doesn't even earn 5$.

We CATHOLICS believe this attitude is toxic, its like spitting in the face of God. We see it post after post. The ironic thing is we get damned for this, I serve a devil pope, I worship a mary goddess, I worship statues, Our doctrines are evil.

We still say to ourselves these are still our brothers and sisters in Christ they just mixing up their priorities.

Why isn't the priority how to love God and neighbor? Instead the SELFISH priority is HOW DO I SAVE MY OWN ASS!?

Meh ... sort of a "yes and no" ... from where I sit.

I can agree that serving God (obeying the two Greatest Commandments) is a better focus than personal salvation.
But it sort of feels like THE TRUTH doesn't really matter, either. For a former Atheist ... nothing is more important than the TRUTH. If our sins were all forgiven at Calvary, then I want to know ... and if only some of our sins were forgiven, then I want to know that. Not because of MY salvation, but because I want to KNOW that God is who He says that He is. (and if Jesus is not who he says he is, then I want to know that, too.)

That is where embracing Tradition contrary to Scripture is a problem for me and why I stepped away from the Catechism for Inquirers. I respect the RCC too much to affirm what I cannot believe.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes and no. Hosea 11:9, ". . . for I am God, and not man; . . ." Malachi 3:6, ". . . For I am the LORD, I change not; . . ." 1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . ."

So Jesus is not fully God?

 

[Yeshua1]

Some good points in this part (given Catholic assumptions about literal presence).


Meh ... sort of a "yes and no" ... from where I sit.

I can agree that serving God (obeying the two Greatest Commandments) is a better focus than personal salvation.
But it sort of feels like THE TRUTH doesn't really matter, either. For a former Atheist ... nothing is more important than the TRUTH. If our sins were all forgiven at Calvary, then I want to know ... and if only some of our sins were forgiven, then I want to know that. Not because of MY salvation, but because I want to KNOW that God is who He says that He is. (and if Jesus is not who he says he is, then I want to know that, too.)

That is where embracing Tradition contrary to Scripture is a problem for me and why I stepped away from the Catechism for Inquirers. I respect the RCC too much to affirm what I cannot believe.

Roman in the ultimate sense vests saving authority into Rome and the sacraments, and gives the Cross and Jesus lip service!

 

[atpollard]

Roman in the ultimate sense vests saving authority into Rome and the sacraments, and gives the Cross and Jesus lip service!

As a Baptist (non-Roman) ... "What must I do to be saved?" [Acts 16:30]

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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