What is "Death"??

[timtofly]

Not true. The fact that the lost are raised for the judgment shows that understanding of physical death, Romans 5:12, do to sin is not correct, Revelation 20:11-15.

Physical death is the very point of sin. We do NOT get to live in the physical body until the GWT. God gives a life span according to the 1000 year period humanity lives in. Genesis 6, changes that span from hundreds of years to 120. Moses in Exodus 20, states that honoring ones parents provides additional life in years. Moses did not die at 120, because his time was up. It was because he disobeyed God. If he actually died at all. For a long time after Moses it was 70 years. God never told us what life span to expect in the NT, for the church age. In fact God never told the 1st century church the age would go on for another 1990 years nor to expect to live long lives. Because of sin, this physical body was not allowed to go on sinning, until the end of time.

 

[Derf B]

Who says that?

I was responding to timtofly.

 

[Derf B]

Because Hell was known as the place of death. The destruction of the soul is not until the end of time. The destruction of the body is on the soil, not under it, thus worms gorge on the flesh.






The body does not go to sheol.

Then why is sheol ("Hades") listed next to "the sea" in Rev 20:13? Are you saying there are souls that are waiting in the sea for thousands of years?? And why is it called a "resurrection" if the soul wasn't dead?

One major interpretation of "Sheol", translated in the Septuagint as "Hades", is "the grave". And yes, the grave is where worms gorge on flesh.

 

[Derf B]

Is this the wormhole doctrine? It is an opening in space where the worm goes from a state of life, to death, and immediately to the GWT?

Sorry, my brain and thoughts....

The scriptures show, that the soul remains in sheol from the time the physical body dies, until the final resurrection. The GWT. The point of activity is their worm. The worm is a symbol of life in death. The forever birth and rebirth of maggots to flies, back to maggots never ending, never dying, but gorging on rotten flesh. It is figurative, not literal. The soul is not a body of flesh, and maggots do not have souls, nor do flys. There is not a constant process of their worm. Do we really want to know the activity of a soul in sheol?

I've heard of others talk about an immediate transference to the GWT after death. But to me, it doesn't ring true if the souls under the altar are having to wait.

 

[timtofly]

Then why is sheol ("Hades") listed next to "the sea" in Rev 20:13? Are you saying there are souls that are waiting in the sea for thousands of years?? And why is it called a "resurrection" if the soul wasn't dead?

One major interpretation of "Sheol", translated in the Septuagint as "Hades", is "the grave". And yes, the grave is where worms gorge on flesh.

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power.

Revelation 20:5
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.)

Revelation 20:12-13
12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.

Let me know if anything is out of context.

Resurrection is implied, but not stated. Most reject a rapture, however the phrase "gave up" is not an explicit resurrection, just like "caught up" is not an explicit resurrection or rapture (to some). I even argue the interpretation of rise first. Those in Christ rise first at the moment they die. That is not what they teach about the verse. That would be a different sermon and a different text. The term resurrection is not used with those appearing before the GWT. The verses do not say rise or resurrected.

The resurrection was for those bodies who lived for one thousand years. They could not live, if their bodies are dead somewhere. Some want to make the whole chapter 20 only spiritual. They do not accept the words, one thousand years. If people do not agree on interpretation, who is correct? The Day of the Lord is the whole thousand years, not the last day, or first day by themselves. Chapter 20 is the Day of the Lord.

It does not seem to me that God is that concerned where souls are. Do they need bodies to be sent to the lake of fire? It is still speculation that some do get a new body, but that is God’s ability to let some decide on the last day. If the claim is they cannot decide, why are they judged on their works at all? Does any verse contradict the point, that some can decide to accept God on the last day? There are some who demand a few verses definitely claim they can accept God at the GWT. I doubt I would want to give a lot of people false hope, before they spend thousands of years in sheol, to find out it was not true. We do not know.

If the resurrection is a demon body, then the demonized soul becomes a body to be cast into the lake of fire. There may be a verse that says some still have a spirit in heaven with God, and they are still in the Lamb's book of life. We do not know. We are not even assured those in the lake of fire are destroyed. Even a demonized spirit, may not mean destroyed. It is the soul that dies, or the spirit dies and the soul remains. We do not know. There is the verse about destroying both body and soul in hell. But even hell gets thrown into the lake of fire at the time souls and spirits are cast in. That verse has so many interpretations and translations, about the only thing it can say is to fear God.

We know the body can die. We know the soul can have a second death. What about the spirit? There is no third death. Nor is the spirit even mentioned. We still do not know.

 

[timtofly]

I've heard of others talk about an immediate transference to the GWT after death. But to me, it doesn't ring true if the souls under the altar are having to wait.

Being of God is all about waiting. Humanity had to wait 6000 years to be restored. The OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the resurrected Jesus Christ ascended to heaven to enter Paradise, where they are again waiting with NT saints under the alter until the 5th seal.

Moses waited 80 years before God used him. Noah waited 500 years. And then worked for 100 years. Enoch waited 365 years. There is something about waiting. Perseverance: persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success; it is a thing for a reason. Perseverance or OCD. Patience or procrastination?

 

[Derf B]

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power.

Revelation 20:5
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.)

Revelation 20:12-13
12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.

Let me know if anything is out of context.

Resurrection is implied, but not stated. Most reject a rapture, however the phrase "gave up" is not an explicit resurrection, just like "caught up" is not an explicit resurrection or rapture (to some). I even argue the interpretation of rise first. Those in Christ rise first at the moment they die. That is not what they teach about the verse. That would be a different sermon and a different text. The term resurrection is not used with those appearing before the GWT. The verses do not say rise or resurrected.

Vs 5, as you quoted, is EXPLICIT that the dead live again, and these are the ones that did NOT rise at the first resurrection.

The resurrection was for those bodies who lived for one thousand years. They could not live, if their bodies are dead somewhere.

"Resurrection" is a term that requires the object be first alive, then dead, then alive again. If their bodies don't die, what does? We've already said the soul is kept alive in Hades (something I'm questioning).

Some want to make the whole chapter 20 only spiritual. They do not accept the words, one thousand years. If people do not agree on interpretation, who is correct? The Day of the Lord is the whole thousand years, not the last day, or first day by themselves. Chapter 20 is the Day of the Lord.

There may be some spiritual meaning to the chapter, but if there's no literal meaning, our faith is vain, according to Paul.

It does not seem to me that God is that concerned where souls are. Do they need bodies to be sent to the lake of fire? It is still speculation that some do get a new body, but that is God’s ability to let some decide on the last day. If the claim is they cannot decide, why are they judged on their works at all? Does any verse contradict the point, that some can decide to accept God on the last day? There are some who demand a few verses definitely claim they can accept God at the GWT. I doubt I would want to give a lot of people false hope, before they spend thousands of years in sheol, to find out it was not true. We do not know.

I appreciate the thoughts here. I still maintain that if "death", "hades", and "the sea" all give up their dead, they have to be giving up something. If it's a soul that has been alive for the previous 1000 years, then it can hardly be said that they came to life, as in Rev 20:5. Even if "death" means "separation" of soul from body, "coming to life" must mean re-integration of soul with body.

Since Jesus rose physically, and we are promised the same kind of resurrection as Jesus, our Christian faith requires that the first resurrection include the body, though now incorruptible, for those that die before Christ comes ("we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed")

We know the body can die. We know the soul can have a second death. What about the spirit? There is no third death. Nor is the spirit even mentioned. We still do not know.

Well, the spirit is mentioned in some of those old testament verses in the OP.

 

[Derf B]

Not true. The fact that the lost are raised for the judgment shows that understanding of physical death, Romans 5:12, do to sin is not correct, Revelation 20:11-15.

I don't understand why you would say that. If Adam died due to sin and then is raised due to the sacrifice of Jesus, why is that incorrect? If we are all Adam's seed, and thus are treated like Adam, both in death and in the resurrection, why is that incorrect?

By interpreation it is the conscious part of the person. Remember, Jesus' soul died on the cross while Jesus was yet conscious. Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12, Psalms 22:1, Psalms 22:6, Matthew 27:46, Romans 5:8, John 19:28. Jesus had paid in full prior to Him saying so before He physically died, John 19:30. He was forsaken, Psalms 22:1. and prior to His physical death He was no longer forsaken, Luke 23:46.

I don't see anything in those verses that says Jesus' soul died while He was still alive on the cross. In fact, most say the opposite, imho.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Presume for a moment that death actually means the cessation of all function, mental, physical, spiritual.

I've scanned this post and found no attempt to clarify the types of death addressed in the Bible.
J. Vernon McGee taught me decades ago there three typed of death:
1) spiritual
2) physical
3) eternal

How is physical death related to spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org
"Question: "How is physical death related to spiritual death?"

Answer: The Bible has a great deal to say about death and, more importantly, what happens after death. Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. When understood in that way, the two concepts are very closely related, and both physical death and spiritual death are reflected in the very first references to death...."

For more information access the website: How is physical death related to spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org

I hope this helps.

 

[37818]

I don't understand why you would say that. If Adam died due to sin and then is raised due to the sacrifice of Jesus, why is that incorrect? If we are all Adam's seed, and thus are treated like Adam, both in death and in the resurrection, why is that incorrect?

I don't see anything in those verses that says Jesus' soul died while He was still alive on the cross. In fact, most say the opposite, imho.

I cannot cause you to hear and understand what you refuse to hear or to ubderstand. Jesus paid in full what He said was paid in full, John 19:30, prior to His physical death, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Paid in full.

 

[37818]

I was responding to timtofly.

Ok.

 

[timtofly]

I cannot cause you to hear and understand what you refuse to hear or to ubderstand. Jesus paid in full what He said was paid in full, John 19:30, prior to His physical death, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Paid in full.

All the prophecies about the time on the cross, Yes. That was accomplished. That was not the Atonement. The Atonement was, "It is finished", and then the Atonement was complete.

 

[Derf B]

I cannot cause you to hear and understand what you refuse to hear or to ubderstand. Jesus paid in full what He said was paid in full, John 19:30, prior to His physical death, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Paid in full.

Of course you can’t. All you can do is present evidence for your position. If you present more and better evidence for your position than I can for mine, then you have done your best. If, however, I present more and better evidence than you can, then you should at least take a look at my position. I might be wrong. You might also be wrong. If we can’t say that about our positions, then there’s absolutely no point in discussing this topic. I said up front I’m considering what is the truth on this topic. I hope you will join me in that consideration.


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[Derf B]

I've scanned this post and found no attempt to clarify the types of death addressed in the Bible.
J. Vernon McGee taught me decades ago there three typed of death:
1) spiritual
2) physical
3) eternal

How is physical death related to spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org
"Question: "How is physical death related to spiritual death?"

Answer: The Bible has a great deal to say about death and, more importantly, what happens after death. Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. When understood in that way, the two concepts are very closely related, and both physical death and spiritual death are reflected in the very first references to death...."

For more information access the website: How is physical death related to spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org

I hope this helps.

Thanks, Wesley, for jumping into the discussion! That is a very good summary of the current christian view on death. We've addressed some of those passages, and I'm not finding them convincing. Here's where I have a problem: those trying to explain the different types of death always start with a definition of death, just like the GotQuestions article you referenced. It says, "Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God."
But what is the source of this definition? They don't give a biblical reference, they just expect you to accept it. The bible doesn't distinguish between Adan's "physical death" and his "spiritual death". Paul doesn't either, at least not specifically. Neither does anyone say that death is a separation. It might be hinted at, but it's not clearly defined that way in the Bible.

Here's one possibility:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
But that one is only talking about the second death. It seems presumptuous to take the second death description and apply it to the first death.

Can you point to a place in the bible that defines death? I haven't found it, at least not the first death. The second death is well-defined in Rev 20:
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:6 KJV] Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
...
[Rev 20:14 KJV] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[Rev 20:15 KJV] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
...and let's not forget:
[Rev 21:8 KJV] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Why do you think it was important for John to define the second death (more than once), but nobody ever defined the first death? And if the lake of fire is the second death, that makes it sound like there is only one other death, not two (else Rev 20 would be talking about the third death).

I'll suggest a reason: The second death was not something people had ever observed before. The first death was ever present--people had been dying since Adam, and everybody knew exactly what the first death was like--you ceased all activity, thought, breathing, etc, and started to decay. If there was a second type of death indicated by God to Adam and Eve, you can't tell it by reading the account in Genesis.

Even the GotQuestions folks pointed out one reason why someone came up with the physical death/spiritual death dichotomy--they couldn't explain how Adam was told he would die the day he ateof the fruit, but he died 900+ years later. This is an easy thing to answer, though--"the day" was not a 24 hour day, it was an era, or an unspecified period of time. There are other answers, too. There's no reason for the delayed death of Adam to drive the whole doctrine of death to a less obvious conclusion.

 

[37818]

Then why is sheol ("Hades") listed next to "the sea" in Rev 20:13? Are you saying there are souls that are waiting in the sea for thousands of years?? And why is it called a "resurrection" if the soul wasn't dead?

It is my understanding, souls of the dead, the souls are not yet dead. But are held in three places, Hades,what is called the sea, or by death it self. The earth and its sea is not meant, 2 Peter 3:10, ". . . the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. . . ." And Revelation 20:11, ". . . And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ." This teaching of those three places the living souls of the dead being held for the Judgement is unique to Revelation 20:13.

 

[37818]

All you can do is present evidence for your position.

I am presenting what I know to be the correct Biblical position.

The two common views are: The belief in the immortality soul and so etermal torment of the lost. The belief in the mortality of the soul and so the annihilation of the lost.

 

[percho]

It is my understanding, souls of the dead, the souls are not yet dead. But are held in three places, Hades,what is called the sea, or by death it self. The earth and its sea is not meant, 2 Peter 3:10, ". . . the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. . . ." And Revelation 20:11, ". . . And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ." This teaching of those three places the living souls of the dead being held for the Judgement is unique to Revelation 20:13.

lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; - for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;1Cor 15:51.53

Let's call, "we," above Larry, Curly and Mo. Larry and Curly have died, that is are at sleep and Mo is still alive. Can I assume verses 51 and 53 apply to all whether at sleep, that is dead or alive?

Of both, the at sleep, dead and the alive, what needs to put on immortality and what needs to put on incorruption?

because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption; 'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;Acts 27, 29-32

I wonder if the soul, Jesus, made any new friends while in Hades? Did the soul Jesus talk to anyone in Hades while his spirit was in the hands of the Father Luke 23:46?

 

[timtofly]

But what is the source of this definition? They don't give a biblical reference, they just expect you to accept it. The bible doesn't distinguish between Adan's "physical death" and his "spiritual death". Paul doesn't either, at least not specifically. Neither does anyone say that death is a separation. It might be hinted at, but it's not clearly defined that way in the Bible.

It is found in Genesis 3 when Adam disobeyed God. The robe of white was removed if you keep the same term from Revelation 6:9-11

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.

When this robe was removed Adam and Eve were ashamed, naked, and hid from God. From Adam to the 5th seal, very soon in the future, no human could put the robe of white on. That is our spirit. There is no verse about a spirit that dies. That is why the spirit has been with God. If there are verses about a spirit, you have to use context. The spirit was the whole image of God. Genesis 5:3
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

We see that the first son Adam had after loosing God's image, was in Adam's own image. Spiritual death is not only separation from God, it is separation of this robe of white, that is the image of God.

On the mount of transfiguration do we see the affects, Luke 9:28-31

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The spirit is with God, because that is our glorified image from God. It is spirit, because God sends His own Holy Spirit as a replacement. The controversy of the start of a human seems not settled. Psalms 139:13-16
13 For you fashioned my inmost being,
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders — I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from you
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo,
but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped
before any of them existed.

Even the psalmist understood that as an embryo God was in control. God sealed us with His Holy Spirit when we ourselves were born as sinners. God already knew our whole life. Our spirit was witness in heaven as well to all that we are. God could use any means to directly communicate with us. I think it is through our spirit. Romans 8:15-23
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We see that the two spirits are in communication. Verse 19-21 says we long to be sons of God in our full form. Not only is the body redeemed, but the soul itself will be joined by our glorified spirit.

Now we know this fleshly body cannot enter heaven or Paradise. It will return to dust. But Paul claims our soul will also be changed when the robe of white is put on. We shall all be changed. The dead first in the 5th seal. Then when the Lamb appears in the 6th seal, those alive in Christ will receive our robe of white (glorified bodies).

The seals opened the Lamb's book of life. The book provided by the Atonement on the Cross, that was written before the foundation of the world. As stated, the OT saints could not enter Paradise until the cross. They were in Abraham's bosom. But at the Atonement, they were set free from the sting of death. They now make up those souls under the altar.

 

[Van]

Hi Derf B,

1) Since people who are "spiritually dead" (unsaved thus not made alive together with Christ) have an existence following physical death (see Luke 16:22) physical death does not result in "spiritual" death, at least not immediately.

2) The body of Christ (believers) currently is split on whether a person is two parts (body and spirit/soul) or three parts (body, spirit and soul.) I am a two parter. My view is the "soul" simply refers to the core attributes of our "human" spirit.

3) At conception, when God forms our "spirit" within us, our spirit is not "immortal" but mortal. Only those who attain "eternal life" have their mortal soul/spirit converted into an immortal one. The rest face the second death.

 

[Derf B]

Hi Derf B,

1) Since people who are "spiritually dead" (unsaved thus not made alive together with Christ) have an existence following physical death (see Luke 16:22) physical death does not result in "spiritual" death, at least not immediately.

2) The body of Christ (believers) currently is split on whether a person is two parts (body and spirit/soul) or three parts (body, spirit and soul.) I am a two parter. My view is the "soul" simply refers to the core attributes of our "human" spirit.

3) At conception, when God forms our "spirit" within us, our spirit is not "immortal" but mortal. Only those who attain "eternal life" have their mortal soul/spirit converted into an immortal one. The rest face the second death.

Thanks for the reply, Van.
I’m wondering if even the spirit/soul part has been given too much attention. Your reference to Luke 16 is the main place people go to for support for it, but doesn’t mention the soul at all. In fact, it describes 2 results of death—burial and no burial. It describes 2 places, Hades and a place on the other side of a gulf and higher up, probably with eating and drinking (Abraham’s bosom might mean they were reclining at a meal table, similar to John being in Jesus’ bosom at the last supper. And it would show the full reversal of fortunes, compared to the earlier picture in life.)

Do our spirits eat? What if this is a picture of the time after the resurrection of their bodies, at least parabolicly.

As you can see, I’m also questioning the idea of Abraham’s bosom being a section of Hades, since the story doesn’t specify that 1. It’s a place, and 2. That it’s in Hades.


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