What is "Death"??

[timtofly]

The witch said she saw “gods”, or elohim ascending out of the earth. Then the pronoun switches to singular and they talk about Samuel. I think the elohim were either God or angels that raised Samuel in some form, possibly as a temporary resurrection. There may be a distinction between the elohim and the Samuel figure. It never says it was Samuel’s soul.

Sons of God is used in Job, seemingly speaking of angels.

No, Job does not say that. Sons of God are humans, the stars are the angels. Unless you quote a verse that says otherwise.

If it was not Samuel why did he say Saul would die? It was not the witch interpreting. Saul was having a conversation directly with Samuel.

She was looking into Abraham's bosom. They were all gods walking around. Some may have appeared to be walking toward her.

 

[37818]

Not just lower Sheol—“and shall consume the earth with her increase,“—her increase is the produce of the land. That’s what I was pointing out—it’s not just Sheol that’s being talked about here. But if the punishment for those that sacrifice to devils includes the whole land getting torched, then it’s happening to all of “Jacob”, “His people” according to vs 9.

My point is that this verse is not talking about after-life punishment, but national punishment.


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Your view renders the words "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses . . ." void of any truth.

 

[Derf B]

Your view renders the words "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses . . ." void of any truth.

Hardly. Moses told them to love their neighbor as themselves, among other things. The prophets definitely said “Their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched.” Jesus was clear that they had both Moses and the prophets, but He didn’t say one was as good as both.


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[Derf B]

No, Job does not say that. Sons of God are humans, the stars are the angels. Unless you quote a verse that says otherwise.

If it was not Samuel why did he say Saul would die? It was not the witch interpreting. Saul was having a conversation directly with Samuel.

She was looking into Abraham's bosom. They were all gods walking around. Some may have appeared to be walking toward her.

She said she saw them or him come up out of the earth. It doesn’t say she saw into the earth.

I didn’t say it wasn’t Samuel. I think the old “man” she saw coming up in vs 14 was a different thing/being from the “gods” she saw ascending in vs 13. I could well be wrong, and this one passage would be the death knell for my argument.


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[Derf B]

Unless you quote a verse that says otherwise.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Psalm 104:4 (KJV)
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The word in both the Greek New Testament and the Septuagint is “aggelos”, and the word in Hebrew is Elohim. It doesn’t have the “son of” part.

 

[timtofly]

She said she saw them or him come up out of the earth. It doesn’t say she saw into the earth.

I didn’t say it wasn’t Samuel. I think the old “man” she saw coming up in vs 14 was a different thing/being from the “gods” she saw ascending in vs 13. I could well be wrong, and this one passage would be the death knell for my argument.


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Well, the original point was where saints went in the OT. I say Abraham's bosom under the earth. That humans are the sons of God is a different point. If Adam was created in God's image that would indicate a son relationship in a spiritual sense, like a human son is in the image of a human father. That Jesus who was God came to earth as a human for humanity, calling us children, then sons of God seems like humanity.

Now if the witch was bringing some one "up" from the dead, and looking down claimed to see gods, then she saw those walking around in Abraham's bosom, on the fact that Samuel would be expected to be there and not in the place of torment.

 

[Derf B]

Now if the witch was bringing some one "up" from the dead, and looking down claimed to see gods, then she saw those walking around in Abraham's bosom, on the fact that Samuel would be expected to be there and not in the place of torment

She only saw something “ascending out of the earth”. She never said she saw something “under the earth”.

She never said anything about “Abraham’s bosom”, either.

Be careful not to put words into the text.

 

[timtofly]

She only saw something “ascending out of the earth”. She never said she saw something “under the earth”.

She never said anything about “Abraham’s bosom”, either.

Be careful not to put words into the text.

I am not, that is what Jesus called it. It has been the name used for at least that long. Unless you can prove there were multiple locations, with multiple names.

Definitely the witch would not call it that. There would be pagan names for the place of the dead.

 

[Derf B]

I am not, that is what Jesus called it. It has been the name used for at least that long. Unless you can prove there were multiple locations, with multiple names.

Definitely the witch would not call it that. There would be pagan names for the place of the dead.

She did not say anything about what was under the earth, only what came up out of the earth. As such, she wasn’t talking about what was under the earth, no matter what anyone calls it! Only what came up.

Jesus did not actually name a place where Lazarus was. He only described his position with respect to Abraham—right there with him, probably enjoying a feast with him, reclining “in his bosom”, like John was at the last supper with Jesus.
John 13:23 (KJV)
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

This would accentuate the contrast between Lazarus’ previous life—where he couldn’t even get crumbs from the rich man’s table. Now he was in the place of honor, right next to Abraham.

You can see it wasn’t just a location, but a condition being described, because the second mention is only of “his bosom”.

One more reference: John says Jesus is in the bosom of the Father: John 1:18 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. It’s a condition of being honored, by being right next to the person.

 

[timtofly]

She did not say anything about what was under the earth, only what came up out of the earth. As such, she wasn’t talking about what was under the earth, no matter what anyone calls it! Only what came up.

Jesus did not actually name a place where Lazarus was. He only described his position with respect to Abraham—right there with him, probably enjoying a feast with him, reclining “in his bosom”, like John was at the last supper with Jesus.
John 13:23 (KJV)
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

This would accentuate the contrast between Lazarus’ previous life—where he couldn’t even get crumbs from the rich man’s table. Now he was in the place of honor, right next to Abraham.

You can see it wasn’t just a location, but a condition being described, because the second mention is only of “his bosom”.

One more reference: John says Jesus is in the bosom of the Father: John 1:18 (KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. It’s a condition of being honored, by being right next to the person.

So what would you call this place where Abraham, Samuel, and Lazarus were physically dead, walking around and in each other's company?

 

[37818]

Hardly. Moses told them to love their neighbor as themselves, among other things. The prophets definitely said “Their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched.” Jesus was clear that they had both Moses and the prophets, but He didn’t say one was as good as both.

You conflate Hades with the lake of fire. And you deny the fire of Luke 16:19-31 to be referred to by Moses Deuteronomy 32:22. You can believe as you want, we do not agree.

 

[Derf B]

So what would you call this place where Abraham, Samuel, and Lazarus were physically dead, walking around and in each other's company?

And when did you stop beating your wife?

 

[Derf B]

You conflate Hades with the lake of fire. And you deny the fire of Luke 16:19-31 to be referred to by Moses Deuteronomy 32:22. You can believe as you want, we do not agree.

John tells us that in the last judgment, Hades will be forever conflated with the lake of fire. I consider it possible, though not a necessity, that Jesus was giving a story about what happens after the judgment in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

But whether I'm right about that or not, the passage in Deut is talking specifically about a judgment that was to occur on the offspring of Jacob that affected their land. As such, it seems unwise to try to make it talk only about the netherworld. And once you include the surface of the earth, then it makes no sense to say the Deut passage is primarily about Hades/Sheol.

 

[timtofly]

And when did you stop beating your wife?

It is interesting at what point humans just stop caring.

 

[Derf B]

It is interesting at what point humans just stop caring.

About wife beating?

I was making a point. Did you understand my point?


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[timtofly]

About wife beating?
I was making a point. Did you understand my point?
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Why would I want to even think about harming another person? That you do not seem to care, by thinking I would even think about what you asked.

You could have just said, "I do not have a name." Or simply dropped the subject. Yes, your choice of answer seems to indicate you just do not care. Hitting my wife has never entered my mind. You just put the thought there, whether intentional or not.

 

[Derf B]

Why would I want to even think about harming another person? That you do not seem to care, by thinking I would even think about what you asked.

You could have just said, "I do not have a name." Or simply dropped the subject. Yes, your choice of answer seems to indicate you just do not care. Hitting my wife has never entered my mind. You just put the thought there, whether intentional or not.

It’s a trick question. In a courtroom a prosecutor asks a witness whether he has stopped beating his wife. If he answers “yes”, then he is admitting he previously beat his wife. If he answers “no”, then he is admitting he is still beating his wife. Either answer “proves” his guilt. But the question assumes the guilt in the first place. It is called “begging the question”.

That’s what you did when you asked, “So what would you call this place where Abraham, Samuel, and Lazarus were physically dead, walking around and in each other's company?” You “beg the question”, aka assume, that there is such a place.


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[timtofly]

It’s a trick question. In a courtroom a prosecutor asks a witness whether he has stopped beating his wife. If he answers “yes”, then he is admitting he previously beat his wife. If he answers “no”, then he is admitting he is still beating his wife. Either answer “proves” his guilt. But the question assumes the guilt in the first place. It is called “begging the question”.

That’s what you did when you asked, “So what would you call this place where Abraham, Samuel, and Lazarus were physically dead, walking around and in each other's company?” You “beg the question”, aka assume, that there is such a place.
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I guess that now I can only assume you do not want to answer the question.

 

[Derf B]

I guess that now I can only assume you do not want to answer the question.

Your trick question?

 

[Derf B]

I guess that now I can only assume you do not want to answer the question.

I’ll give you the answer I’ve been trying to give you this whole thread. I don’t know that there is such a place. The Samuel story does not require it. Jesus’ story of the rich man and Lazarus might, but I’m not completely convinced it does. If the Lazarus story is the only place where it talks like that, and Jesus was fond of speaking in parables (Matthew 13:34 (KJV)
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them, it is possible that the scene He spoke of wasn’t a literal event, or an actual description of Hades.


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