What would you call the place the dead Abel and Noah were/are?
BTW How long had Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man been dead? Talk to me about what kind of legs, eyes, fingers and tongue's they all had? I wonder what color eyes they have?
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What would you call the place the dead Abel and Noah were/are?
BTW How long had Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man been dead? Talk to me about what kind of legs, eyes, fingers and tongue's they all had? I wonder what color eyes they have?
timtofly
Well-Known Member
I was more interested if you thought it was one single place. It does not get much described about it, I grant that much. I doubt it was the Garden or Paradise, but if Jesus did not know the name, then no one knows the name.I’ll give you the answer I’ve been trying to give you this whole thread. I don’t know that there is such a place. The Samuel story does not require it. Jesus’ story of the rich man and Lazarus might, but I’m not completely convinced it does. If the Lazarus story is the only place where it talks like that, and Jesus was fond of speaking in parables (Matthew 13:34 (KJV)
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them, it is possible that the scene He spoke of wasn’t a literal event, or an actual description of Hades.
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
Abel died in the Garden. He did not go any where. Noah got drunk and sinned. Did he loose his salvation?
Tell me when they died, and I will do the math for you.
My hunch is Lazarus was dead for 4 days...
Which “it” are you referring to? He names Hades, but describes the other place—“Abraham’s Bosom” is not a place name, except in proximity to Abraham.
The question is not what to call it, or how many places He’s referring to, but whether it is a description of places at all, or perhaps whether it is anachronistic. The “spirits” or “souls” are described with physical characteristics, like fingers and tongues, and you alluded to their legs, as you said they were walking around.
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
What is the point of making it something it is not?
The dead are dead. There are two types, but not different in any physical way. The big objection is why physical at all?
Do you think the lake of fire is physical?
Can a physical tangible existence be invisible? The term "spiritual" gets over used and probably not substantial any more. Spiritual at one time meant divine or holy, as opposed to secular. It was a concept relating to being religious. Now that the majority of humanity including the "church" are secular, it seems to be the opposite of physical. But that is totally the wrong direction of shift. Adam and the sons of God were created as physical beings and spiritual was physical.
The connection was the word light. Light is not a spiritual concept. It is a physical attribute of God. Thus the attribute of death was outer darkness. Thus the underbelly of what was known as the surface of the earth, was the default place where the dead were. All that is found deep in the ground is darkness. There are several references in the Bible stating, "under the earth". At Noah's Flood it is assumed the earth opened in various places and "consumed" all living matter. We do have oil reserves as proof. But oil is a physical property. God points out the soul is still moving around in those fields of oil. Unless the soul went further down and ends up in a totally different type a physical phenomenon, we have no knowledge of. God put this place further down than modern humans would be able to go. Numbers 16:31-35
31 The moment he finished speaking, the ground under them split apart —
32 the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up with their households, all the people who had sided with Korach and everything they owned.
33 So they and everything they owned went down alive into Sh’ol, the earth closed over them and their existence in the community ceased.
34 All Isra’el around them fled at their shrieks, shouting, “The earth might swallow us too!”
35 Then fire came out from Adonai and destroyed the 250 men who had offered the incense.
It was the end of the physical body, but yet the place had a name and the soul went down to the place of that name. In Isaiah 5:14-15. It seems that the more humans spread out above ground, sheol matches with an expansion.
14 Therefore Sh’ol has enlarged itself
and opened its limitless jaws —
and down go their nobles and masses,
along with their noise and revels.
15 The masses are lowered, the nobles are humbled — proud looks will be brought down.
So while God let the physical and choices that resulted in sin go on for those above ground, there is still a physical presence under the earth where a physical shell is gone, but a ghost with the same name walks around physically until the lake of fire.
37818
Well-Known Member
OK. I think your suppostition about Lazarus and the Rich Man possibly being regarding after the judgement is mistaken. We do not agree. For the record I believe the human soul is mortal, and in the eternal suffering of the lost. The death of the body in this age does not kill the soul.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
If the soul is mortal, is it dead? Being mortal as opposed to immortal just means dying or not dying. The soul is not constantly dying. The soul seems like a form like God. It just is. It does not change. It cannot die. The only thing that can happen is if God declares it no longer exists.
I believe the blood of Abel cries out from Sheol/Hades. I believe Noah in Sheol/Hades is resting yet a little season as those in Rev 6:11. I believe Lazarus is Eleazar Greek/Hebrew the servant of Abraham who Abraham wanted to make his heir who died of the faith of Abraham ie in the bosom of the Abraham and in Hades is resting yet a little season.
I believe in Hades to lift up one's eyes implies resurrection as also tongue, finger and to look and see, Same phrase in Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Send Lazarus from the dead, via resurrection, to
timtofly
Well-Known Member
So all of humanity is still in sheol?
I’m not sure how that would work, if the soul is mortal, but the lost suffer eternally. What is suffering, if not the soul?
I guess you’ve brought up a good point—that now we need to define “soul”.
I propose that it is the thinking part of the person. The part that experiences what the body is subjected to.
But then is it possible for the soul, apart from the body, to experience anything? Can a soul experience pain? The fact that all people will be resurrected either to bliss or judgment, and that the judgment is an experience of pain, makes me think the body is necessary for pain. Else why resurrect the bodies?
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Possibly. But if in a resting state, where are they resting? I’m tending toward the idea that resting or sleeping really means “dead”, but with a resurrection to come. That’s how Jesus described the other Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree with them.
God's word.
Please allow me to explain...
Physical death was always a reality, even for Adam:
" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." ( Genesis 3:22-23 ).
Here I clearly see that God sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden, lest they take and eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.
To me, what that describes is physical immortality, which Adam and Eve did not have unless they ate of the Tree of Life.
So, the death described here:
"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:16-17 )
And here:
" And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." ( Genesis 3:3)
...are describing spiritual death ( separation from God ).
Why?
The answer is discerned by process of elimination...
If God said that " in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ", and they did not physically die that very day, then the death spoken of is something other than physical death.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
The death spoken of is spiritual ( separation from God ):
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" ( Romans 5:12 ).
and I believe that it is better described here:
" Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 5:20-21 ).
Both spiritual death and spiritual life are spoken of here...
As well as here:
" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).
In this passage I see what it is to be "dead in trespasses and sins".
It is to walk according to the course of this world, having a life of living to the lusts of the flesh and of fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
Again, the death spoken of in Genesis could not be physical, as the Lord stated that in the day they ate of the fruit, they would die.
Sin leads to death ( James 1:13-15 ).
That death necessitates that we as sinners be made alive ( "quickened" ) in Christ.
To know God and His Son are what the Bible describes as life eternal ( John 17:3 ).
"Life" outside of knowing God is spiritual death, or separation from God and not knowing Him spiritually.
That is what happened when Adam and Eve sinned against God...
They "died" in their relationship with God.
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" ( Romans 5:12 ).
and I believe that it is better described here:
" Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 5:20-21 ).
Both spiritual death and spiritual life are spoken of here...
As well as here:
" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ).
In this passage I see what it is to be "dead in trespasses and sins".
It is to walk according to the course of this world, having a life of living to the lusts of the flesh and of fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
Again, the death spoken of in Genesis could not be physical, as the Lord stated that in the day they ate of the fruit, they would die.
Sin leads to death ( James 1:13-15 ).
That death necessitates that we as sinners be made alive ( "quickened" ) in Christ.
To know God and His Son are what the Bible describes as life eternal ( John 17:3 ).
"Life" outside of knowing God is spiritual death, or separation from God and not knowing Him spiritually.
That is what happened when Adam and Eve sinned against God...
They "died" in their relationship with God.
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Your reasoning, which is similar to that of many, seems to rest mainly on that phrase, “in the day”. Yet that kind of phrasing is used numerous times in the Bible, so we can glean information about its meaning elsewhere in scripture. But the best comparison would be its use by the same author, and even better would be in a similar context, don’t you think?
So how about this verse, by Moses, in the exact same chapter: Genesis 2:4 (KJV)
These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
If your reasoning is sound, that means it only took one day for the Lord to create the heavens and the earth (everything that happened in the previous chapter and 3 verses). Yet we know exactly how long God took, because He tells us it was 7 days.
So if your primary premise is incorrect, shouldn’t you question your conclusion?
Did God really say, “in that 24 hours”?
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And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: Acts 13:22,23
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27
“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn]
“he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:29,31
Fifty days following the resurrection from Hades the soul of the fruit of David's loins, his seed, Jesus, the soul David was still in Hades.
Are we better than the man after God's own heart?
Maybe the question should not be, "what," but, "why," the death?
Consider:
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. Gen 1:31, 2:1-3 NKJV < The creation - It was very good!
So what does God do with his, very good, creation?
for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,
What is that, hope? Is it not, redemption? The redemption of the body? see Rom 8:23-25 Redeemed from sin and death.
Beginning at Genesis 2:4 God tells how He, God. subjected the creation, to vanity. The creation did not willingly subject itself to vanity. God did. God made man of the flesh. God gave man a law. The fleshly lustful man transgressed that spiritual law, sin, that resulted in, the death, of which the serpent had the power thereof Heb 2:14, bringing about the need of, in hope.
It was the plan of God, before the foundation of the world.
Consider:
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. Gen 1:31, 2:1-3 NKJV < The creation - It was very good!
So what does God do with his, very good, creation?
for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,
What is that, hope? Is it not, redemption? The redemption of the body? see Rom 8:23-25 Redeemed from sin and death.
Beginning at Genesis 2:4 God tells how He, God. subjected the creation, to vanity. The creation did not willingly subject itself to vanity. God did. God made man of the flesh. God gave man a law. The fleshly lustful man transgressed that spiritual law, sin, that resulted in, the death, of which the serpent had the power thereof Heb 2:14, bringing about the need of, in hope.
It was the plan of God, before the foundation of the world.
I think both are important, and one may inform the other.
Is there hope without a bodily resurrection? Paul didn’t think so
1 Corinthians 15:19 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV) The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
For some reason I take it literally, at least in that case.
I agree.
Yes, I do agree.
But the way I see it, the Author is God, regardless of who He inspired to write it.
Therefore, I often take statements from places in His word to give me understanding about things I might see in other places.
For that, I see that He actually finished His work at the end of the 6th day, so to me that is the meaning of "in the day that the Lord made the Heavens and the earth".
I agree.
No.
I just look at the text and I know what it means...
At least in most cases.
It's always been that way for me, ever since I first believed on Christ at the age of 12, although many "verses" didn't start to really make sense in their proper contexts for me until I availed myself of God's command to desire the sincere milk of the word ( 1 Peter 2:2 ), and to study ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
In addition, I tend to ignore what are known as "hermeneutics", and I don't advocate them...
What I advocate is constant study and quality time in His word and for believers to make up their own minds about what it says for themselves.
After all, believers have all they need in the Person of the Holy Spirit, in order to determine what His word says and means ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).
We shouldn't rely on "shortcuts", but should allow God to show us the meaning of things in His timing...
In the past I've often been wrong on many passages, but He has shown me something over the years:
Studying His word is its own reward, my friend, and I've found that the more time I spend in it, the clearer it becomes.
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
Peter did not say David's soul was still in sheol.
Yes, but are you allowing God to have His say in what it means?For some reason I take it literally, at least in that case.
I agree.
Yes, I do agree.
But the way I see it, the Author is God, regardless of who He inspired to write it.
What if another believer does the same, but you both come up with different meanings? Seems like one of you might be wrong (or both).
Well, at least not someone else’s hermeneutics. It’s difficult not to advocate your own hermeneutic. You know, the one you described and advocated above?
Wonderful! Then as things are becoming clearer, perhaps you will agree with my position more!What I advocate is constant study and quality time in His word and for believers to make up their own minds about what it says for themselves.
After all, believers have all they need in the Person of the Holy Spirit, in order to determine what His word says and means ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).
We shouldn't rely on "shortcuts", but should allow God to show us the meaning of things in His timing...
In the past I've often been wrong on many passages, but He has shown me something over the years:
Studying His word is its own reward, my friend, and I've found that the more time I spend in it, the clearer it becomes.
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