What is Faith, so often I hear it defined in gibberish.

[Barry Johnson]

So is it your belief that mankind can come to God on there own at anytime they choose? That the world is willingly blind and deaf. We just need to of our own accord stop, smell the roses and we will see God and know that we have need of him?

Wow you underestimate the Holy Spirit and the Word of God .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Irrelevant. FAITH is part of the Christian Life from Justification through Glorification and the Holy Spirit begins His work even before Justification. So my statement that Faith is from God and the Holy Spirit stands. [verses available upon request]

Jesus marvelled at their unbelief. Why?

Mark 6 .6

And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[Charles Perkins]

Wow you underestimate the Holy Spirit and the Word of God .

I'm just trying to understand your argument. I believe God when he tells us that with him nothing is impossible. God also works in mysterious ways.

What I don't understand is how men can know spiritual things without the Spirit of God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The English language uses the word believe in a different way than the Bible does. Many who say the words believe and hope really mean "want to" and "wish to." Are you saying then that we naturally can believe in God while in the world? Is this belief that you are describing in God's existence alone or in the character of God?

Also please explain 1 Corinthians 2:9-14

Which verse says ' regeneration precedes faith ' ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Irrelevant. FAITH is part of the Christian Life from Justification through Glorification and the Holy Spirit begins His work even before Justification. So my statement that Faith is from God and the Holy Spirit stands. [verses available upon request]

Where does it imply even ' regeneration preceds faith ' , where am I to get this concept from the scriptures? Whats the best verse or verses please ?

 

[Charles Perkins]

Which verse says ' regeneration precedes faith ' ?

Please tell me what you mean by regeneration. Some seem to have varying ideas of the meanings of words. If we don't define words like this in common terms then misunderstanding is inevitable. So I ask how you define regeneration, please. I want to understand where you are coming from.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm just trying to understand your argument. I believe God when he tells us that with him nothing is impossible. God also works in mysterious ways.

What I don't understand is how men can know spiritual things without the Spirit of God.

Why do you believe that man cannot respond positively to the Gospel?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please tell me what you mean by regeneration. Some seem to have varying ideas of the meanings of words. If we don't define words like this in common terms then misunderstanding is inevitable. So I ask how you define regeneration, please. I want to understand where you are coming from.

The idea that you have to be born again before you can believe the Gospel.

 

[Charles Perkins]

Why do you believe that man cannot respond positively to the Gospel?

John 6:44 tells us that none can come to the Father unless the Father draws them. God through his Spirit leads us to understand that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 makes it clear that men without the Spirit cannot understand that which is spiritual. Men on their own cannot come to God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please tell me what you mean by regeneration. Some seem to have varying ideas of the meanings of words. If we don't define words like this in common terms then misunderstanding is inevitable. So I ask how you define regeneration, please. I want to understand where you are coming from.

Regeneration as in Spiritually ' born from above ' .

 

[Charles Perkins]

Regeneration as in Spiritually ' born from above ' .

I'm not saying that one is spiritually born of God before we are called. This doesn't mean that we aren't led by the Spirit and given some small measure of the Spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized.

 

[Dave G]

Since I've been on here I've yet to see a calvinist use context.

Barry,
I say this with as much respect towards you as I can,
and still firmly disagree with your continued allegations that context has never been given on passages that we disagree with.

Firstly, many of those that you nickname "Calvinists" simply read and believe the Scriptures as they are;
They just see things differently than you do...
I'm not sure why you fail to see that.

Secondly and as I see it, context has been offered many times for what some of us see.
If it will help, you can pick any passage that you like, and I'll do my best to tell you how I see it and why.

 

[Dave G]

Not once , which is quite remarkable.

Respectfully,
See my above.

From my perspective, it's been done far more than once, my friend.
But since we're talking about context, let's take 2 Peter 3:9, for example:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.".

Growing up, I was taught and sat under preaching and teaching that used this verse as support for, and in conjunction with, verses like John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 2:2 and several others to prove that...

1) God loves all men.
2) God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3) God sent His Son to pay for the sins of all mankind.
4) God is not willing that any of mankind perish, but that they all come to repentance.

Then one day during my studies it hit me...
I realized that 2 Peter 3:9 was being used out of context to support an idea that simply was not there.
Reading along and plugging it back into the text, I saw this:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:9-10 ).

I began to see that the "us-ward" in verse 9 was referring to the"beloved" from verse 8, and that the "any" and "all" were in context with the "us-ward".
In other words, I saw that the passage is not talking about all of mankind at all...
It's talking about and addressed to, the beloved...God's children, those who have believed on Christ;
They are those to whom He is not willing that any perish ( see John 3:16, John 6:39, and John 10:28 ).

For that is who the entire letter is addressed to...
The beloved ( 2 Peter 1:1 ):

" Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:"


No part of that letter is addressed to the unbeliever, and it never has been.
Scripture is for the eyes of the believer...
They are the only ones who will believe it ( 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, Romans 1:16, John 8:43-47, John 10:26-27 ).


As always, I wish you well in your continued studies...
and may He bless you with many good gifts.

 

[Barry Johnson]

John 6:44 tells us that none can come to the Father unless the Father draws them. God through his Spirit leads us to understand that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 makes it clear that men without the Spirit cannot understand that which is spiritual. Men on their own cannot come to God.

John 6.44 is pre crucifixion and simply says they can come if drawn by the father . I have no problem with this old testament verse where the Father was doing the drawing . But then we get to a different timeline of John 12.32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 16.8

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.
So here we can understand that ' draw ' means ' attract ' and that its not a select frozen chosen only .

And 1 cor 2 .9-16 does not say" men without the Spirit cannot understand that which is spiritual. Men on their own cannot come to God" .Unless your reading from a bad modern translation.

It says that the Natural / fleshy ( believer , as paul is still talking to and referring to believers) cannot understand the ' mature ' wisdom. It doesn't say " cannot believe or understand anything spiritual, including the gospel. Its saying the immature fleshy believer cannot understand v6.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm not saying that one is spiritually born of God before we are called. This doesn't mean that we aren't led by the Spirit and given some small measure of the Spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized.

Ok it sounds like you may hold to ' previenient grace . In which man needs a partial regeneration of sorts in order to make a decision or reject . This popularised further by John wesley / classic Arminian position.Which i believe stems from the same faulty pot of Calvinsm. ( Augustine )

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm not saying that one is spiritually born of God before we are called. This doesn't mean that we aren't led by the Spirit and given some small measure of the Spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized.

Which verse would you say speaks on " given some small measure of the spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized." ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm not saying that one is spiritually born of God before we are called. This doesn't mean that we aren't led by the Spirit and given some small measure of the Spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized.

' Called ' happens After we believe. Unless you mean the Gospel call ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm not saying that one is spiritually born of God before we are called. This doesn't mean that we aren't led by the Spirit and given some small measure of the Spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized.

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

 

[Dave G]

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

" For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 ).

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 ).

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

Do you see it Barry?
"Calling" and "election", my friend.

 

[Charles Perkins]

Which verse would you say speaks on " given some small measure of the spirit that we may come to believe God, repent and be baptized." ?

John 3:34 Tells us Christ received the Spirit in full measure.
2 Kings 2:9 Elisha prayed for a double the portion of God's Spirit that Elijah had.
Numbers 11:16-7 God took some of the Spirit of God from Moses to give unto the 70 elders that were called out to aid Moses in leading the people.