What is God's highest virtue?

[Inspector Javert]

Again, this is not about the greatest attribute.

I get that you don't necessarily agree with me on all points, and that's o.k. I would be happy to explore this more fully....

But...........this is ABSOLUTELY about his "greatest attribute".

And your quote demonstrates the futility of your idea.

Why not just say:
"Nuh, uh...you're a dummy-head"

"As it relates to man..." but what about as it relates to GOD?

I might have put it this way:

"As far as man is concerned".... (that would be another possible way to convey the thought).

It's fine if you disagree, or have a better way to express your ideas....
But, Don't treat me like a moron.

But here's why I said that:
"God's attributes...As they relate to God"....seems like, frankly, a non-statement to me.

I think God's attributes (as far as they relate to man, or as far as revelation is expressed or given to man) is a relevant idea:

I don't think that God's attributes "As they relate to God"...is even intelligible. What does that mean???

And even God's loves for humans is not an end in itself.

That is what I am disagreeing with. I believe God "IS" Love, and that therefore and object for his love is indeed an "end in itself"...
Absolutely.

It is a means to an end... God's glory!!!

I believe God's glory is indeed an "end" which God pursues...
I believe it is love, however, which is the attribute which makes that possible.

I don't consider "glory" as synonymous with brute power or force.

I don't think that a God who Deterministically punishes or damns by force his own creature glorifies him at all. I think his justice does, but only if his justice is motivated by love and not raw power.


An evil Deity can be more "glorified" by raw power (and would seek to be 'glorified' thereby). A loving and just one would not. God is not insecure...he doesn't need constant re-affirmation of his sheer Omnipotence.

He is quite aware of the fact that he is possessed of it, and he doesn't need to display it to all of creation at all times.

But, it's not what MOTIVATES him.

I would contend, that what motivates him, (as it relates to man anyway) is his attribute of love.

God's love wouldn't "relate" to HIM at all. By definition, love requires an object. I believe that object was man.

 

[Inspector Javert]

God is glorified by wrath as well as love

Those of us who disagree with you tend to associate God's wrath against wickedness WITH love.

Love does not stand in contradistinction to wrath.

I experience nothing short of a blood-thirsty wrathful RAGE and WRATH if, and when, anything un-righteous threatens the safety and security of my beloved wife and 4 little daughters:

It is EXTREME (and I daresay VIOLENT) WRATH!...which engulfs me when (and if) I feel anything threatens the object of my love...

But it isn't "wrath" which is good here:
Wrath is morally neutral.
It is the love I have for my wife and daughters which elicits and motivates that response if I feel them threatened in any way.

C.S. Lewis said it ably:
"Love CANNOT reconcile itself to an un-lovely object".

God's wrath is interrelated and inextricably tied to his love.
But his death was love's way of both showing wrath....
and diverting said wrath FROM the OBJECT of his love at the same time.

 

[quantumfaith]

I am deep in the weeds, I don't think, scratch that, I KNOW I could not have expressed my thoughts with anywhere near the eloquence demonstrated by IG.

For some reason, and I cannot explain it, the emphasis on "God's Glory" has an hollow ring to it. The glory of God simply is, to me, because he "simply is" and all of creation, even though marred by sin, still reflects that glory.

 

[percho]

I believe the glory of God is, to be.

In the beginning, God.

Jesus the Son of God, born of woman was about to lay down his life. Die.

What is the contrast of God to dead idols, gods? Living, to be.

Jesus the one about to die the opposite of living, prayed; And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, Phil 2:7 God self emptied in a Son born of woman, Jesus the Son of God.

Who by him (Jesus born of woman) do believe in God (the Father), that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God 1 Peter 1:21

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (with Jesus, born of woman, the Son of God) Heirs of eternal life, glory. Romans 8:17

All because of the Love of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

I believe the glory of God is, to be.

In the beginning, God.

Jesus the Son of God, born of woman was about to lay down his life. Die.

What is the contrast of God to dead idols, gods? Living, to be.

Jesus the one about to die the opposite of living, prayed; And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, Phil 2:7 God self emptied in a Son born of woman, Jesus the Son of God.

Who by him (Jesus born of woman) do believe in God (the Father), that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God 1 Peter 1:21

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (with Jesus, born of woman, the Son of God) Heirs of eternal life, glory. Romans 8:17

All because of the Love of God.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

This is in response to another thread that started to get derailed.

I asserted that God is for God before he is for anyone or anything else. He loves his glory more than you or me.

Thus his greatest virtue is his self-glorification.

I'm sure we'll get into the ethics behind that ("love seeks not its own"), but there is a great logic to it as well. If God glorified something higher than himself, and that thing is less worthy than God, then God would be an idolater.

Ps 23 is a good demonstration of this. God does all that awesome stuff "for his name's sake." God blesses us for the sake of his name. That is throughout the OT.

Why does God create us? For his glory (Isa. 43:7)

Why does God save us? God performs salvation for His own sake. He justifies the people called by His name in order that He may be glorified. (Exo. 36:22—23, 32)

Why did God rescue the Israelites from Egypt the way he did? So that his name would be proclaimed. (Exo. 9:16)

Why did God not destroy Israel time after time when they disobeyed him? For his name sake and his fame amongst the nations. (Ezek. 20:14)

Good point!

Would say its His Holiness, as that virtue allows Him to love perfectly, judge rightly etc!

 

[Greektim]

Good point!

Would say its His Holiness, as that virtue allows Him to love perfectly, judge rightly etc!

Just to clarify, I'm not asking what God's greatest attribute is (I'd agree w/ holiness). I am asking what is God's greatest virtue... what is the best thing that God can and does do? God doesn't do holiness, he is holy.

IMO, the best thing God does is to glorify himself.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just to clarify, I'm not asking what God's greatest attribute is (I'd agree w/ holiness). I am asking what is God's greatest virtue... what is the best thing that God can and does do? God doesn't do holiness, he is holy.

IMO, the best thing God does is to glorify himself.

isn't that why he permitted the Fall, and destined jesus for the Cross, for His greatest glory, and in the end, our best benefit, and all of creations itself also?