What is going on in Christian circles?

[abcgrad94]

you are using "love" and defining it, in a very unbiblical manner.

"Speaking the truth in love" has nothing to do with whether or not you are harsh."

So, let us not sell out Christian truth, for Pagan, ecumenical, and pluralistic "get alongism." Instead, let us speak the TRUTH, in love, sometimes even harshly, just like Jesus and the apostles did.

No, I am not defining love in an unbiblical manner. The Bible says they will know we are Christians by our love! No where in my post did I say we should put up with heresy for the sake of getting along. I'm simply saying we can disagree in an agreeable way.

Nowhere in scripture do we find Christ talking in an abusive manner to others. He did not display malicious, better-than-thou attitude when pointing out error, and neither should we.

I am tired of posters on this board pretending to "love" others when all the while they are attacking, pontificating, and putting others down. It IS possible to speak the truth without displaying the sin of PRIDE, and that's a big part of the problem. We also have people confusing OPINION for BIBLICAL TRUTH. If we cannot show grace, why should anyone want to listen? Personally, I am more apt to listen to someone if they speak kindly. Talk down to me, and I don't care a rat's behind what they have to say.

 

[InTheLight]

It's not just me. Many of my friends and family have noticed what seems like an attack of hatefulness rearing its ugly head in the body of Christ. I've noticed it on the rise in churches, ministries, and even here on BB. I know this is a debate forum and things get heated, but lately, it's getting harder and harder to find true Christian love anywhere!

I think it is a byproduct of the era of talk radio, cable TV news commentary shows, and internet subscribed email newsletters. A lot of Christians listen to Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and/or watch O'Reilly, Huckabee, etc. They get the daily political attack blurbs via emails and the attack attitude kind of permeates our spirit and then it manifests itself in our interaction with our brethren.

I quit listening to Limbaugh years ago and I never could stomach Glenn Beck. About the only political talk show I listen to nowadays is Dennis Prager, a couple times a week, maybe less.

Thirty years ago there was only Point/Counterpoint at the end of 60 minutes (once per week for five minutes), the McLaughlin Group on PBS (once per week for half hour), and newspaper op-ed pieces. The discussion was infrequent at best and they were much more civil.

Seriously, I'm on several other NON-CHRISTIAN forums where people are more respectful and behave better than the Christians. I don't care how "true" your doctrines are, how "good" your church is, or how much you claim to love God. If we cannot, and do not have love for one another, how on earth can we expect people to even believe we are Christians? Without LOVE, we have NOTHING!

You're right. When I first joined BB I was shocked at the amount of personal insults that got thrown around at people. Even threats of physical violence. This is a busy forum and it's tough to moderate. We should all remember the mods in our prayers. And we should read over what we type before hitting ENTER.

 

[InTheLight]

Agree. Moderators and Administrators are cracking down immediately. If you call a brother or sister "unsaved" or "not regenerated", you will be on the outside looking in.

Bravo! I'd like the mods to look hard at the "I'm a better Christian than you" posts that also show up here.

If you don't like my free coffee in church, that is your right. To say it is not "spiritual" is a hateful myopic attack on a sister or brother. Same with a translation or another pastor, etc

Yep, exactly what I'm talkin' about!

We can debate and discuss without venom or hate.

Amen.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Great OP. This is the very reason that I don't post near as much as I did when I first joined the board....I came on board to learn, discuss, and occasionally debate. If we can calm down I may start posting again.

peace and prayers

 

[canadyjd]

It's not just me. Many of my friends and family have noticed what seems like an attack of hatefulness rearing its ugly head in the body of Christ. I've noticed it on the rise in churches, ministries, and even here on BB....

I don't know that unChristlike behavior among those professing to be Christians is a new problem. Professing Christians used to kill one another over the same matters of doctrine that we are debating today.

James tells us that if a person can control his/her tongue, he/she will be in control of the whole body.

I have taken to telling my children that in any given conversation, it is almost always better to simply say nothing and listen.

That is certainly something I hope to strive for in my life.

peace to youraying:

 

[Trotter]

It's not just me. Many of my friends and family have noticed what seems like an attack of hatefulness rearing its ugly head in the body of Christ. I've noticed it on the rise in churches, ministries, and even here on BB. I know this is a debate forum and things get heated, but lately, it's getting harder and harder to find true Christian love anywhere!

Seriously, I'm on several other NON-CHRISTIAN forums where people are more respectful and behave better than the Christians. I don't care how "true" your doctrines are, how "good" your church is, or how much you claim to love God. If we cannot, and do not have love for one another, how on earth can we expect people to even believe we are Christians? Without LOVE, we have NOTHING!

Amen. I have noticed the same, but not just here. I am on the BB a lot less than I used to be of late, but I am seeing it elsewhere.

Along the same lines I am seeing Christianity attacked more vehemently than I have seen in a very long time. These attacks are coming from all sides... the media, atheists, fools, and even our own brothers and sisters.

 

[Havensdad]

No, I am not defining love in an unbiblical manner. The Bible says they will know we are Christians by our love! No where in my post did I say we should put up with heresy for the sake of getting along. I'm simply saying we can disagree in an agreeable way.

Where does the Bible say that Christians will be known by there quiet spokeness and willingness to place error alongside of truth?

SOMETIMES, we can disagree in a gentle or "agreeable" way. Sometimes rebuke or harsh words are called for; that is actually one of the stated functions of scripture. Those who are gentle, when harshness is called for, are being hateful. Those who are harsh, when harshness is called for, are being loving.

Nowhere in scripture do we find Christ talking in an abusive manner to others. He did not display malicious, better-than-thou attitude when pointing out error, and neither should we.

Define "abusive"...we have Jesus in the scriptures openly rebuking others in an extremely harsh and confrontational manner, complete with name calling.

If you agree that it is O.K. to be like Jesus, then you would agree that it is o.k. for me to tell people they are "sons of hell," "Whitewashed tombs" and "snakes," right? To tell them, as Jesus said, that "You hate me because I speak the truth," while also telling the other person, "You lie like your father, the devil."

I am tired of posters on this board pretending to "love" others when all the while they are attacking, pontificating, and putting others down. It IS possible to speak the truth without displaying the sin of PRIDE, and that's a big part of the problem. We also have people confusing OPINION for BIBLICAL TRUTH. If we cannot show grace, why should anyone want to listen? Personally, I am more apt to listen to someone if they speak kindly. Talk down to me, and I don't care a rat's behind what they have to say.

A person that rejects truth (and lets be honest; all disagreements in doctrine, including my own, are because of one or the other's own sinfulness and desire for a different "truth" that suits them better...not because it is not clear), needs to change their mind. Nowhere does the Bible say "Just agree to disagree..." That is an unbiblical concept. Sometimes changing a wrong mind is messy and harsh. And only a hateful, weak, and unfaithful servant, would agree to give space to falsehood, because contending for truth is too messy.

 

[webdog]

I didn't realize that responding to the OP was "hijacking". I was under the impression that hijacking a thread was along the lines of attempting to change the subject of the thread and distract from the conversation as defined in the OP. Perhaps you have some other definition?

Where does the Bible say that Christians will be known by there quiet spokeness and willingness to place error alongside of truth?

SOMETIMES, we can disagree in a gentle or "agreeable" way. Sometimes rebuke or harsh words are called for; that is actually one of the stated functions of scripture. Those who are gentle, when harshness is called for, are being hateful. Those who are harsh, when harshness is called for, are being loving.



Define "abusive"...we have Jesus in the scriptures openly rebuking others in an extremely harsh and confrontational manner, complete with name calling.

If you agree that it is O.K. to be like Jesus, then you would agree that it is o.k. for me to tell people they are "sons of hell," "Whitewashed tombs" and "snakes," right? To tell them, as Jesus said, that "You hate me because I speak the truth," while also telling the other person, "You lie like your father, the devil."



A person that rejects truth (and lets be honest; all disagreements in doctrine, including my own, are because of one or the other's own sinfulness and desire for a different "truth" that suits them better...not because it is not clear), needs to change their mind. Nowhere does the Bible say "Just agree to disagree..." That is an unbiblical concept. Sometimes changing a wrong mind is messy and harsh. And only a hateful, weak, and unfaithful servant, would agree to give space to falsehood, because contending for truth is too messy.

So something "seasoned with grace" can and should be harsh?

 

[Havensdad]

So something "seasoned with grace" can and should be harsh?

"Should"? As I said, at times. And its "with grace" and "seasoned with salt."

But yes, of course you can bestow unmerited favor upon a person, while administering a harsh rebuke. Jesus did it all the time, as did Paul, and even Stephen.

 

[webdog]

"Should"? As I said, at times. And its "with grace" and "seasoned with salt."

But yes, of course you can bestow unmerited favor upon a person, while administering a harsh rebuke. Jesus did it all the time, as did Paul, and even Stephen.

I know what it says, I was paraphrasing it in my words.

I guess the Holy Spirit should have substituted jalepeno's instead of salt.

I find your examples quite lacking.

 

[StefanM]

Define "abusive"...we have Jesus in the scriptures openly rebuking others in an extremely harsh and confrontational manner, complete with name calling.

If you agree that it is O.K. to be like Jesus, then you would agree that it is o.k. for me to tell people they are "sons of hell," "Whitewashed tombs" and "snakes," right? To tell them, as Jesus said, that "You hate me because I speak the truth," while also telling the other person, "You lie like your father, the devil."

To be fair, however, Jesus was speaking to self-righteous and obstinate lost people. To be that harsh to a brother or sister in Christ is much more difficult to justify.

 

[Havensdad]

To be fair, however, Jesus was speaking to self-righteous and obstinate lost people. To be that harsh to a brother or sister in Christ is much more difficult to justify.

True, to some extent. But then, again, one of the functions of scripture is the rebuking of the brethren (Titus 1:13). And Jesus did call Peter "Satan" and rebuked him pretty harshly.

I am not saying it should be an every day occurrence. I am saying that being harsh or gentle, and being "loving" or "hateful" are two completely different categories. One can be loving, and harsh, or gentle, and hateful (or vice versa). When the scriptures say "Preach the truth in love" it has nothing to do with being softspoken. It has to do with one's motivation.

 

[Amy.G]

There is no need to be harsh. Just speak the truth and God will take care of the rest.

 

[abcgrad94]

If you agree that it is O.K. to be like Jesus, then you would agree that it is o.k. for me to tell people they are "sons of hell," "Whitewashed tombs" and "snakes," right? To tell them, as Jesus said, that "You hate me because I speak the truth," while also telling the other person, "You lie like your father, the devil."


Sometimes changing a wrong mind is messy and harsh.

When Christ called the pharasees "whitewashed tombs," etc. he was looking at their hearts. He knew they were hypocrites because he was able to read their minds and see the sin in their hearts. That power, to see and judge the hearts of men, belongs to God and him alone. It is not up to us to do that.

It's also not our jobs to change other people's minds. We can present the truth in a loving manner, but being harsh and shoving our "truth" on other people will not change them. It's the Holy Spirit's job to CHANGE people. It's our job to LOVE them.

I think part of the frustration and anger we see is because people want to control others, and that's just not our job.

 

[Havensdad]

When Christ called the pharasees "whitewashed tombs," etc. he was looking at their hearts. He knew they were hypocrites because he was able to read their minds and see the sin in their hearts. That power, to see and judge the hearts of men, belongs to God and him alone. It is not up to us to do that.

Wrong. We are not to judge the heart of a man, but we are to judge their actions and their professed belief. I am not judging a person's heart, and neither was Jesus. He was judging their actions.

Moreover; according to Scripture, it was necessary for Jesus to become "in every way" like us. That means His actions were not in some special category, but rather, He was the epitome of a righteous man. If we pattern our lives in every way after Jesus (including His harshness), we would be doing exactly what we should do.

Jesus was not alone in his harshness. Paul was EXTREMELY harsh...like, Elijah and the prophets of Baal harsh....

"You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?


Then He struck him blind. Stephen, when he was "filled with the Holy Spirit" was also harsh...

Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

There is not a harsher insult to use, then to use the word "uncircumcised" in regards to the Jews. Stephen was EXTREMELY harsh and offensive...and in fact, could not have been moreso.

It's also not our jobs to change other people's minds. We can present the truth in a loving manner, but being harsh and shoving our "truth" on other people will not change them. It's the Holy Spirit's job to CHANGE people. It's our job to LOVE them.

I think part of the frustration and anger we see is because people want to control others, and that's just not our job.

Yes, it is. "Loving" manner, has nothing to do with harshness, or lack of it. It has to do with why you are saying what you are saying. This soft spoken get-alongism, is nothing but demonically inspired ecumenism. The Holy Spirit changes people's minds through us.

And, it is our job to love people, true. But that is not necessarily speaking soft spoken to people. That can be the most evil, hateful thing a person can do. Being harsh can be loving. You see, we are also commanded to REBUKE.

And> The anger and frustration, in a lot of instances, is simply people getting upset that people hold on to God dishonoring, man centered garbage, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I am not judging a person's heart, and neither was Jesus. He was judging their actions.

Since Christ was fully God as well as fully man, I don't believe you can conclude that he was only judging actions. Therefore perhaps you should refrain from saying ABC is "wrong".

 

[Arbo]

I think it is a byproduct of the era of talk radio, cable TV news commentary shows, and internet subscribed email newsletters. A lot of Christians listen to Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and/or watch O'Reilly, Huckabee, etc. They get the daily political attack blurbs via emails and the attack attitude kind of permeates our spirit and then it manifests itself in our interaction with our brethren.

So it's a matter of, based on your examples, conservative politics?

 

[drfuss]

We had a thread similiar to this one some time ago. As discussed in that thread, some of these problems are in response to what some consider good debating practices.

It was pointed out by some who love to debate, that misrepresenting what others believe is a good debating practice because it forces them to defend their belief and to distract them from the weaknesses of the misrepresentor's belief.

Many times these misrepresentations lead to a hostile response; which is the subject of this thread. I am not going to give examples of these misrepresentations; you can figure that out for yourself

I think that intentually misrepresenting what others believe should be discouraged to promote being respectful to others and to keep peace.

Some on here sound a little like the politicians in TV ads who misrepresent what the other side stands for.

BTW, this is the main reason that I stopped debating on BB.

 

[InTheLight]

So it's a matter of, based on your examples, conservative politics?

No it's neither conservative or liberal politics, it's the nature of the the conversations on these types of commentary and debate shows. I could have included Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, and Ed Schultz from MSNBC as examples in my post as they are equally inflammatory but didn't because most evangelical Christians follow right wing commentators.

 

[tinytim]

I judge ABC to be right... and man, that is harsh for me to say! lol