What is Grace?

[Dr. Bob]

“The nature of the divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock and ask, but also to cause them to knock and ask in the first place.”
~~St Augustine

Grace is not just God saving Bob, but changing Bob's nature so that Bob would want that grace.

 

[The Archangel]

Carey went in spite of the Calvinistic teachings of his church.

You really need to review your church history. There was wide support in an amongst the British Particular Baptists. Carey himself wrote " If there is any reason for me to hope that I shall have any influence upon any of my brethren, and fellow Christians, probably it may be more especially amongst them of my own denomination. I would therefore propose that such a society and committee should be formed amongst the particular baptist denomination." (Emphasis his). source

If Carey was suggesting that the society and committee be formed amongst the particular baptists (the Calvinists), it means nothing less than there was wide-spread support among the Calvinists. Who in their right mind would seek to form a committee and society made up of persons diametrically opposed to what he was suggesting?

This is what happens when one reads wikipedia as opposed to original sources and true and trustworthy historians.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

No, I do not agree. I have been in countries where they have yet to have a Bible translated into their own language. Not all nations do have a Bible in their own language. Whatever gave you the assumption that they do?
Do you not believe in the Great Commission, and that its responsibility lies directly upon you. The Great Commission was not fulfilled by William Carey and Adoniram Judson alone.

Well, this has always been one of the great questions hasn't it? Christians have asked for centuries how God could hold men accountable who have never heard of Christ. I think every Christian has thought on this problem at some time or another.

The only answer I have is that all men have some revelation of God and are without excuse.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The scriptures say that man holds the truth. A person does not need the scriptures to know right from wrong.

If you had never heard the scriptures, if you had never been influenced by society, and someone walked up and punched you in the mouth for no reason whatsoever, would you know that is wrong? Of course you would, we all would. Every man has a conscience that judges right from wrong. The very fact that we have a conscience disproves Total Depravity, because conscience by it's very definition says that man has a desire to do right and feels guilty when he does wrong.

Society and religion can affect conscience, but even without society and religion all men have a conscience. All men know it is wrong to lie and steal, this is not something that has to be taught man. Even a thief and a liar do not like it when someone steals from them or lies to them.

Romans 1 says God has revealed himself to all men through creation, so that all men are without excuse.

That said, I believe the scriptures clearly show that a man is accountable for what he knows. Those who have had much revelation are held more accountable than those who have little revelation.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

So, I am not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ. If these men recognize there is a God in heaven and look to him in trust, I imagine they are saved, for if Jesus was revealed to them they would also believe in him.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Now, I fully agree with you we are to go out and tell everyone the gospel. This is probably my greatest failing as a Christian. We are to be a light before men, the salt of the earth. I completely agree with you here.

 

[Winman]

Here is a very interesting article about the Primitive and Hardshell Baptists.

“The very heart of the PRIMITIVE BAPTIST religious denomination is its opposition to the Gospel's being preached to the unregenerate as a means providentially and sovereignly used by the Holy Spirit in bringing lost souls to Christ for salvation. The Hardshells contend that regeneration, or the New Birth, is a work performed by the Holy Spirit apart from and without the necessary use of any means whatsoever.”

http://hardshellism.blogspot.com/

 

[The Archangel]

So, I am not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ. If these men recognize there is a God in heaven and look to him in trust, I imagine they are saved, for if Jesus was revealed to them they would also believe in him. (emphasis mine)

This is heresy.

This is inclusivism.
​

This is a denial of the exclusivity of Christ.
​

This is heresy.



The Archangel

 

[psalms109:31]

Grace

I do praise God that Grace is for all men, because God is no respecter of person. So if somone isn't regenerated it isn't because God didn't want them to be. We all know that God does what all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of te truth. So we have to blame ourselves for either not spreading the message or not trusting in God when we heard the message. So just come to Christ He is waiting for you.

The more who hear and come the more God will include, because we also have been included when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

 

[Winman]

This is heresy.

This is inclusivism.
​

This is a denial of the exclusivity of Christ.
​

This is heresy.



The Archangel

It is not heresy whatsover. Did Adam and Eve know of Jesus? Yes and no. They did not know the facts that Jesus would be born of a virgin, that he would die on the cross for our sins and rise from the dead.

No, as far as we know from scripture, they only knew God would send a saviour from the seed of the woman. This is all that was revealed to them, but they believed this promise. And in believing this promise, they believed on Jesus, because Jesus is the Word of God.

You just don't get it, Jesus is the Word of God. The scriptures are a representation of Jesus. All of the words from Genesis to Revelations are his words.

All men have some revelation of God. All men till Noah were descended from Adam, and so had some knowledge of the true God, although it is certain that this knowledge was perverted over time. And then later, all men are descended from Noah, so originally all of mankind had the revelation and knowledge of the true God. Again, this knowledge was perverted, especially after the confusion of languages and dispersion of the people at the tower of Babel.

So, never has there been one moment in the history of the world that the knowledge of the true God was not known. There were always men who held the truth. Of course, there were men who were exposed only to a perverted form of this truth. For example, it is a known fact that over 200 ancient civilizations had flood myths, the story of Noah. Some of these myths were fairly accurate and spoke of God being angry with mankind and sparing a single family with many animals on a boat.

Men are accountable for what they know. Cornelius was a gentile, yet he believed the OT scriptures of the Jews. But after Jesus came, he was now accountable for this new revelation, and so Peter went to him and preached Christ.

Jesus told the Jews that if they had truly believed in Moses and the prophets, then they would also believe him. The fact that they did not believe Jesus proves they did not believe the revelation that had been given them.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

You can call me any name you wish. No man can believe and be saved without the word of God, but the word of God has always been present with man.

It is actually some forms of Calvinism that teaches a man can be saved apart from the scriptures. I recently posted a quote from an associate of R.C. Sproul who said infants can be regenerated before they are old enough to know and understand the scriptures, and before they have the ability to express faith. Now this is an absolute contradiction of scripture, not what I have said.

 

[Crabtownboy]

From dictionary.com


Grace:

Theology .
a. the freely given, unmerited favor and love of god.
b. the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them.
c. a virtue or excellence of divine origin: the Christian graces.
d. Also called state of grace. the condition of being in God's favor or one of the elect.

 

[Winman]

Archangel, here is an example of what I am talking about.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

This Samaritan woman was already a believer when Jesus approached her. She firmly believed the OT scriptures that promised the Messiah would come.

However, Jesus introduced new revelation to her. He told her plainly that he was the promised Christ. This is new revelation, and now she was accountable to either believe it or not. She did believe and was saved.

Would she have been saved if she had died before she met Christ? I believe so, because she believed what had been revealed to her, though incomplete.

 

[psalms109:31]

Words of Christ

Without the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life that our faith comes from; we can not be regenerated, we cannot be in God's favor, we can not be the Elect.

 

[kyredneck]

...“The very heart of the PRIMITIVE BAPTIST religious denomination is its opposition to the Gospel's being preached to the unregenerate as a means providentially and sovereignly used by the Holy Spirit in bringing lost souls to Christ for salvation. The Hardshells contend that regeneration, or the New Birth, is a work performed by the Holy Spirit apart from and without the necessary use of any means whatsoever.” .

The first sentence is a gross misrepresentation. The second is true.

The wind bloweth where it will..... so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Jn 3:8

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5

There is only ONE life giving Spriit. There is only ONE mediator between God and man. There is no other means whatsoever.

 

[Winman]

Without the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life that our faith comes from; we can not be regenerated, we cannot be in God's favor, we can not be the Elect.

Correct. And the scriptures are abundantly clear in that every man is held accountable according to the revelation given to him. Those who have heard little are held a little accountable, those who have heard much are held much accountable.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Where I think folks go wrong is that they think only the words of Jesus in the NT are his words (those red letters). Jesus is the Word of God, the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelations is his Word.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Besides the word of God, the scriptures also teach that the creation itself is a revelation of God so that all men are without excuse. The scriptures also show that every man has a conscience, the law written upon their hearts.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

You don't need to be instructed by anyone to know that if someone comes up and shoots you for no cause that that is a sin. Men know this intuitively or instinctively. It is the law written on our hearts. All men have this knowledge.

So, all men have some degree of revelation from God and are without excuse. That said, we are to go out and preach the gospel and fully reveal the truth to people.

 

[The Archangel]

This Samaritan woman was already a believer when Jesus approached her. She firmly believed the OT scriptures that promised the Messiah would come.

What were the Old Testament scriptures she believed in?

The Archangel

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

To have the word of God the key to knowledge and then trust in your own ability and your own righteouseness and not trust in God is against all of the scripture teaches.

 

[kyredneck]

....Besides the word of God, the scriptures also teach that the creation itself is a revelation of God so that all men are without excuse. The scriptures also show that every man has a conscience, the law written upon their hearts.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;.....

The context of Ro 2 & 3 is NOT about an inherent conscience of right and wrong in unregenerate man. These passages must be connected especially with those prior to them:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

How did those Gentiles that had not the law come about to have the law written in their hearts? Because the Spirit blows where it wills. He is not confined/constrained to any Church, the written word, or the preacher.

 

[kyredneck]

....Those who have heard little are held a little accountable, those who have heard much are held much accountable.
.....

And with that reasoning, the less they know the better off they are.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The first sentence is a gross misrepresentation. The second is true.

If you are referring to the statement as the "very heart" of PB belief, then I will agree.
However, if you are referring to the statement itself as grossly misrepresented, then I will have to disagree with you, dear brother.

We do not preach the gospel as a means by which the Holy Spirit regenerates the unregenerate.
That is why I do not support missions in the first place, because the main thrust of the mission folks is to win souls to Christ (in the eternal sense) through the preaching of the gospel.

If the thrust is to teach kingdom living to those whom the Spirit has already regenerated and drawn to Christ, then it will be an altogether different take.

 

[kyredneck]

If you are referring to the statement as the "very heart" of PB belief, then I will agree.
However, if you are referring to the statement itself as grossly misrepresented, then I will have to disagree with you, dear brother.

We do not preach the gospel as a means by which the Holy Spirit regenerates the unregenerate.
That is why I do not support missions in the first place, because the main thrust of the mission folks is to win souls to Christ (in the eternal sense) through the preaching of the gospel.

If the thrust is to teach kingdom living to those whom the Spirit has already regenerated and drawn to Christ, then it will be an altogether different take.

Brother, there is no disagreement between you and I on this. The statement was worded to make it sound as odious as possible.

 

[psalms109:31]

We do not preach the gospel as a means by which the Holy Spirit regenerates the unregenerate.
QUOTE]


That doesn't make any sence we are all unregenerated until we hear the words of Christ and the Gospel that His words represent which is Spirit and life. Then we either trust and be saved or not and be condemned, the regeneration start or ends

 

[psalms109:31]

Grace

It is the work of God that we believe, for it to be grace we can't work for salvation, we cannot earn it so there is only way for it to be by grace is to just trust and God does all the work.

Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.