What is Grace?

[Winman]

Unless you misspoke, your struggle is not if God will save those who have never heard of Christ, your struggle is how He will do it, because you, by your own words, have shown us you believe God will, in fact, save those who have never heard of Christ. And that is heresy, pure and simple.

This is a question Christians have been asking for centuries. Does it make a person a heretic to ask questions like this?

Google "can people who have never heard of Christ be saved". You will find literally dozens of sites where people ask this question. Here are just a few.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/neverheard.html

http://www.comparativereligion.com/neverheard.html

http://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/never-heard-be-saved.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091116173219AAFTSc5

http://www.faithfacts.org/search-fo...t-about-people-who-have-never-heard-of-christ

I could go on and on, this is a very common question among Christians. Speculating about this does not make a person a heretic, it shows them to be intelligent, thinking persons.

 

[Winman]

What I said, is that persons who had a very limited revelation of God, but believed this limited revelation might be saved.

And there are many examples in the OT. Adam and Eve did not know of Jesus, they only knew that God would send someone from the seed of the woman who would bruise the head of the seed of the serpent. This is very limited revelation, but they believed it. And so by faith they were justified in Christ.

Jesus showed that if a person did not believe Moses, they would not believe him either.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

You either believe God or you don't. Many people in the OT had very limited revelation from God. But what they had, they believed, and if they had been given more, they would have believed that also. This is what Jesus is showing. These men claimed to have believed Moses, but Jesus says they did not, for if they had they would have believed him also.

And this is what Jesus meant when he said his sheep know his voice.

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

The Samaritan woman at the well, and the men in her town knew some scripture. They knew of the coming Messias. And they believed this scripture. When they heard the words of Jesus personally, they recognized that he was from God and spoke his words.

John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

These Samaritans were Jesus's sheep. They had heard his voice before in the Word of God, the scriptures and believed what they heard. And when they heard Jesus themselves, they recognized his voice and believed him also.

 

[The Archangel]

This is a question Christians have been asking for centuries. Does it make a person a heretic to ask questions like this?

Google "can people who have never heard of Christ be saved". You will find literally dozens of sites where people ask this question. Here are just a few.

I could go on and on, this is a very common question among Christians. Speculating about this does not make a person a heretic, it shows them to be intelligent, thinking persons.

Speculation does not a heretic make. However, by your own words, you were not speculating.

You said:

Originally Posted by Winman
So, I am not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ. If these men recognize there is a God in heaven and look to him in trust, I imagine they are saved, for if Jesus was revealed to them they would also believe in him.

And

Originally Posted by Winman
Someone who has never heard the scriptures or of Jesus cannot possibly believe them or on him, that is plain common sense.

So I say again: These are your own words. Notice that in your first quote above says "I am not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ." You may not be exactly sure of the mechanism, but what your own words affirm is that you believe God will save persons who have never heard of Christ. If you were speculating, as you claim you were, you would have said "I am not exactly sure if God saves those who have never heard of Christ."

Unless you misspoke, your struggle is not if God will save those who have never heard of Christ, your struggle is how He will do it, because you, by your own words, have shown us you believe God will, in fact, save those who have never heard of Christ. And that is heresy, pure and simple.

Delude yourself all you want. You believe persons can and will be saved without faith in Christ--quod erat demonstrandum. Which, again, is heresy.

11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (ESV, Emphasis mine)

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

What I said, is that persons who had a very limited revelation of God, but believed this limited revelation might be saved.

And there are many examples in the OT. Adam and Eve did not know of Jesus, they only knew that God would send someone from the seed of the woman who would bruise the head of the seed of the serpent. This is very limited revelation, but they believed it. And so by faith they were justified in Christ.

Jesus showed that if a person did not believe Moses, they would not believe him either.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

You either believe God or you don't. Many people in the OT had very limited revelation from God. But what they had, they believed, and if they had been given more, they would have believed that also. This is what Jesus is showing. These men claimed to have believed Moses, but Jesus says they did not, for if they had they would have believed him also.

And this is what Jesus meant when he said his sheep know his voice.

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

The Samaritan woman at the well, and the men in her town knew some scripture. They knew of the coming Messias. And they believed this scripture. When they heard the words of Jesus personally, they recognized that he was from God and spoke his words.

John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

These Samaritans were Jesus's sheep. They had heard his voice before in the Word of God, the scriptures and believed what they heard. And when they heard Jesus themselves, they recognized his voice and believed him also.

You are hopelessly and disastrously wrong. The Samaritans rejected all but the Pentateuch. You can choose to close your eyes to this historical fact, but you will be doing so amidst the overwhelming laughter and pity of all the rest of us who know better.

You may continue in your ignorance (which, by now, has demonstrably grown to more than ignorance), but you will be like the ostrich who buries his head in the sand.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Speculation does not a heretic make. However, by your own words, you were not speculating.

You said:
So I say again: These are your own words. Notice that in your first quote above says "I am not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ." You may not be exactly sure of the mechanism, but what your own words affirm is that you believe God will save persons who have never heard of Christ. If you were speculating, as you claim you were, you would have said "I am not exactly sure if God saves those who have never heard of Christ."

Unless you misspoke, your struggle is not if God will save those who have never heard of Christ, your struggle is how He will do it, because you, by your own words, have shown us you believe God will, in fact, save those who have never heard of Christ. And that is heresy, pure and simple.

Delude yourself all you want. You believe persons can and will be saved without faith in Christ--quod erat demonstrandum. Which, again, is heresy.

11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (ESV, Emphasis mine)

The Archangel

Well, I gave an example of Adam and Eve, they never heard of Christ, and they were saved. Rahab the harlot was saved, and there is not one bit of evidence from scripture to show that she knew anything about Jesus.

Look at the scriptures and see what Rahab knew.

Jos 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Do you see one word about Jesus Christ in what Rahab knew? No. She said she knew the LORD had given them the land. She had heard how the LORD parted the Red Sea and destroyed the Egyptians. She knew that God had given the Jews victory over Sihon and Og. And then she says God is the true God, the one and only God.

There is not one mention of Jesus Christ coming to die on the cross for her sins here. Her revelation of God was limited. But, she truly believed what little revelation she received and hid the spies in her home.

And we know Rahab was saved, as shown in Hebrews chapter 11.

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

What you fail to understand is that Jesus is The Word of God. Every word in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations is His Word. And if you truly believe His Word, then you are believing on Jesus.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

This is another reason I believe in the KJB. The scriptures are a representation of Jesus himself. Jesus is pure, without corruption, and so I believe his words are pure and without corruption. Jesus said his "words" would never pass away. So I believe his pure word will endure forever. So, one of the versions has to be correct. I believe the KJB is that version in English.

Now you disagree, I know that. You don't believe God preserved his word. Oh, I know, you will say you DO believe God preserved his word in the original autographs, but everybody knows they haven't existed for centuries. Or, you will say they exist, but in heaven. Now how in the world can that help us folks down on earth? It is a ridiculous concept.

Adam and Eve had a very limited revelation of God's word, but what they had, they believed. They had faith in the Word of God which is the same as having faith in Jesus Christ himself, because Jesus IS the Word of God.

And it works the other way as well, if you don't believe the Word of God, it is impossible that you truly believe in Jesus.

 

[Winman]

And you completely misrepresent what I have said. It is impossible that a man be saved without revelation from God. I have been saying this for months.

What I speculated about is those men who have not even heard the scriptures. But, I clearly said all men have some revelation of God. How could they not? We all came from Adam and Eve, and they knew about the true God, so there was some revelation in the world. And afterward, when the world was destroyed in the flood, all men descended from the three sons of Noah; Ham, Shem, and Japheth, who all knew of the true God.

And after man was dispersed after the tower of Babel, some revelation of the true God went with men. I showed that over 200 ancient civilizations have "flood myths", a story of the world being destroyed by God for man's wickedness. Most of these flood myths speak of one man and his family being saved on a boat, and often many animals as well. These stories are found on every continent, even remote islands. So, there has always been some revelation of God.

And that is exactly what the scriptures say, that all men have some knowledge and revelation of the truth and are without excuse.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Now, only God knows the hearts of men. Only God knows how much revelation and truth a man knows. All I was suggesting is that it might be possible that a man have enough revelation of God that he place his trust in God, and perhaps that person is saved. It is pure speculation on my part. But I am far from the first person to ask this question, or to suggest this answer.

 

[Winman]

Archangel said:

You are hopelessly and disastrously wrong. The Samaritans rejected all but the Pentateuch. You can choose to close your eyes to this historical fact, but you will be doing so amidst the overwhelming laughter and pity of all the rest of us who know better.

This is pure foolishness on your part. You are believing some scholar over the Word of God. I don't care if you get a whole auditorium full of "biblical scholars" and every single one of them says the Samaritans did not know of the Messiah. I believe God's Word, which says she knew "that Messias cometh".

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

My advice for you is to throw away all those books you have from those pseudo-scholars, they are obviously leading you astray. Just believe what the scriptures say.

 

[Winman]

Archangel said;

but you will be doing so amidst the overwhelming laughter and pity of all the rest of us who know better.

 

[The Archangel]

Archangel said:



This is pure foolishness on your part. You are believing some scholar over the Word of God. I don't care if you get a whole auditorium full of "biblical scholars" and every single one of them says the Samaritans did not know of the Messiah. I believe God's Word, which says she knew "that Messias cometh".

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

My advice for you is to throw away all those books you have from those pseudo-scholars, they are obviously leading you astray. Just believe what the scriptures say.

Continue to bury your head in the sand. Facts are facts and you are wrong.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

And you completely misrepresent what I have said. It is impossible that a man be saved without revelation from God. I have been saying this for months.

What I speculated about is those men who have not even heard the scriptures. But, I clearly said all men have some revelation of God. How could they not? We all came from Adam and Eve, and they knew about the true God, so there was some revelation in the world. And afterward, when the world was destroyed in the flood, all men descended from the three sons of Noah; Ham, Shem, and Japheth, who all knew of the true God.

And after man was dispersed after the tower of Babel, some revelation of the true God went with men. I showed that over 200 ancient civilizations have "flood myths", a story of the world being destroyed by God for man's wickedness. Most of these flood myths speak of one man and his family being saved on a boat, and often many animals as well. These stories are found on every continent, even remote islands. So, there has always been some revelation of God.

And that is exactly what the scriptures say, that all men have some knowledge and revelation of the truth and are without excuse.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Now, only God knows the hearts of men. Only God knows how much revelation and truth a man knows. All I was suggesting is that it might be possible that a man have enough revelation of God that he place his trust in God, and perhaps that person is saved. It is pure speculation on my part. But I am far from the first person to ask this question, or to suggest this answer.

I am not at all misrepresenting what you said. These are your own words:

Originally Posted by Winman
So, I am not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ. If these men recognize there is a God in heaven and look to him in trust, I imagine they are saved, for if Jesus was revealed to them they would also believe in him. (emphasis mine)

I really never thought this discussion would hinge on your apparent misunderstanding of the English language.

Notice you said: "I'm not exactly sure how God saves those who have never heard of Christ."

If, as you are suggesting, you were simply musing about whether someone would be saved without Christ, you would have used "if" and your sentence would have read thus: "I'm not exactly sure if God saves those who have never heard of Christ." But, as we all know, this is not what you said.

Your use of "how" demonstrates that you do, in fact, believe that a person can be saved without faith in Christ--a heresy, to be sure.

Now, if you meant to say "if," then tell us all, admit you misspoke and we'll all move on.

Furthermore, in quoting Old Testament examples of persons with faith in God--Adam, Eve, Rahab, etc.--is a non-issue since we are in the New Covenant era. It is true those persons believed God--not just any god, but Yahweh, the God of the Bible. And this is why the appeal to the Old Testament carries no weight whatsoever--The Old Testament believers believed the revelation that God Himself had given them. In the New Testament, there is no further revelation other than Jesus Christ. So, to believe in "God" is to believe in Christ.

What you are suggesting is that some tribal person in the Brazilian rain forest who is worshiping a tribal god is somehow saved by his false worship of his false god. You would have us believe the "revelation" of the One, True, and Living God is expressed in this tribal god who demands human sacrifice.

What I have described, which you apparently agree with, is the heresy of inclusivism.

What is more, if, as you believe, inclusivism is true--where people are judged in issues of salvation or condemnation by the revelation they have received--then sending missionaries to these people is the most evil, hateful thing we can do. Why? Because we are bringing the full revelation of Jesus Christ to them and, if they reject Him, they will be sent to Hell for all eternity. According to what you are suggesting, it would be better to leave them in their ignorance because, then, they'll all get a free pass.

So, please, recant your heretical position.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

If, as you are suggesting, you were simply musing about whether someone would be saved without Christ, you would have used "if" and your sentence would have read thus: "I'm not exactly sure if God saves those who have never heard of Christ." But, as we all know, this is not what you said.

I would never say any person can be saved other than in Christ, but how I understand that might be quite different than what you understand.

I don't think a person in the OT had to know details about Christ, because it is obvious they didn't. Even the prophets did not fully understand the revelations given to them.

Matt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The prophets did not see what these folks saw, they did not see Jesus performing miracles, they did not hear his preaching. They only knew a Saviour would come. But the details they did not know. And this is obvious, even Jesus's disciples who believed in him thought he was going to set up a literal kingdom and defeat all of Israel's enemies.

So, nobody in the OT had full revelation of Jesus Christ and what he would do, or how he would do it. This did not prevent them from trusting in those revelations from God they had.

It is not a matter of how much revelation you have, it is whether you believe the revelation you have.

 

[Winman]

And let me take it a little further, man is only responsible for what he knows, what has been revealed to him. Jesus said this himself.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It is very clear here that a person is held accountable for what they know. The man who knows much but does not do God's will will be beaten with many stripes, those who do not know, but commit things worthy of stripes will be beaten with few stripes.

Now, go back to the Samaritan woman. She only knew (as far as we can tell from scripture) that the Messias would come. And this is all she was accountable for.

However, Jesus revealed more to her. He actually told her he was the Messiah.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

This is brand new revelation to this woman. Before she had only known that the Messiah would come. But now Jesus tells her directly that he is the Messiah.

This makes her more accountable. She now has more revelation and knowledge from God. And now she must either believe or reject this new revelation. She did believe Jesus the Messiah as shown:

John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

So you see, a person is held accountable to the knowledge and revelation they are provided by God. If much is given to them, then much is expected from them. But to those who only have a little revelation, less is required or expected of them.

 

[The Archangel]

And let me take it a little further, man is only responsible for what he knows, what has been revealed to him. Jesus said this himself.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It is very clear here that a person is held accountable for what they know. The man who knows much but does not do God's will will be beaten with many stripes, those who do not know, but commit things worthy of stripes will be beaten with few stripes.

Now, go back to the Samaritan woman. She only knew (as far as we can tell from scripture) that the Messias would come. And this is all she was accountable for.

However, Jesus revealed more to her. He actually told her he was the Messiah.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

This is brand new revelation to this woman. Before she had only known that the Messiah would come. But now Jesus tells her directly that he is the Messiah.

This makes her more accountable. She now has more revelation and knowledge from God. And now she must either believe or reject this new revelation. She did believe Jesus the Messiah as shown:

John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

So you see, a person is held accountable to the knowledge and revelation they are provided by God. If much is given to them, then much is expected from them. But to those who only have a little revelation, less is required or expected of them.

So, then, what about the person in the Brazilian rain forest who has never heard of Christ? He dies...where does he go and why?

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

So, then, what about the person in the Brazilian rain forest who has never heard of Christ? He dies...where does he go and why?

The Archangel

I cannot answer this question. And this is what I speculated about. The scriptures show all men have some knowledge and revelation of the true God, even if it is just the revelation shown through creation. Whether this revelation is enough for a man, and how much revelation is necessary to know and trust in the true God is the question.

But it is obvious that men in the OT did not have to have detailed revelation to be saved. They did not know the name Jesus, they did not understand he would go to the cross to die for our sins and be raised from the dead. But they did believe the limited revelation they received.

And even today, a person does not have to have a PhD in theology to be saved. Paul said Timothy knew the scriptures from a child that were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ. A young person can understand that they are a sinner and that Jesus died for them and rose from the dead, and they can trust Jesus to save them. It is really only after getting saved and having the indwelling Holy Spirit can a person even begin to learn the deeper teachings of the scriptures.

But you know, it doesn't really matter, we are commanded to be witnesses to all nations, we are to go and teach men so that they have knowledge of Christ and can choose whether to trust in him or not.

 

[The Archangel]

I cannot answer this question. And this is what I speculated about. The scriptures show all men have some knowledge and revelation of the true God, even if it is just the revelation shown through creation. Whether this revelation is enough for a man, and how much revelation is necessary to know and trust in the true God is the question.

The revelation that is available to all is only enough revelation to condemn; it is not sufficient to save. Why else would Paul say:

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:14-17; ESV; Emphasis mine)
​

The implied answer to all of Paul's rhetorical questions here is simple:

How will they call on him in whom they have not believed? They won't.

How will they believe in him of whom they have never heard? They won't.

How will they hear without someone preaching to them? They won't. NOTICE: Paul does not leave it up to creation to preach.

So, if faith comes by hearing--which means the Gospel must be preached...it cannot be gleaned from creation or general revelation--how can you say someone can be saved--through faith--if they have never heard of Christ?

You can answer this question. My hunch, however, is that you don't want to. I think you may be afraid where that biblical answer will take you.

But it is obvious that men in the OT did not have to have detailed revelation to be saved. They did not know the name Jesus, they did not understand he would go to the cross to die for our sins and be raised from the dead. But they did believe the limited revelation they received.

But, there is a huge difference in what you are pointing to in the Old Testament and the example of the man in the rainforest of Brazil.

Those in the Old Testament who believed did not believe in a god, they believed in the One, True, and Living God--Yahweh. In other words, Baal worshipers who had never heard of Yahweh were not given a free pass.

Similarly, the man in the Brazilian rainforest does not get "credit" (so to speak) for worshiping a god.

Theism is not the issue; faith in Christ is the issue.

But you know, it doesn't really matter, we are commanded to be witnesses to all nations, we are to go and teach men so that they have knowledge of Christ and can choose whether to trust in him or not.

It matters greatly. Yes we are commanded to take the gospel to the nations. But what gospel are we taking? Are we taking a gospel that says: "Here is Jesus who died for your sins; believe on Him and you will be saved from an eternity of conscious torment in Hell; and He is the one and only way of salvation." or are we taking a gospel that says: "Here is Jesus who died for your sins; believe on Him and you will be saved from an eternity of conscious torment in Hell; and, by the way, if we'd never come to you with the gospel you'd get a free pass anyway...so, too bad, so sad for you...you know now?"

What you have been suggesting is that taking the gospel to these Jesus-ignorant peoples is the worst, ghoulish thing we can do to them. After all, if they were to remain in their ignorance, they would have nothing to worry about. But now, since we've shared Christ with them and by that very act they've lost their ignorance, not all will will be saved--because they know about Christ.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Believe it or not Archangel, I agree with your last post. :tongue3:

I have speculated about how people who have never heard the gospel might be saved. This is not unusual at all, thousands if not millions of Christians have asked this question through the centuries.

If there is an answer for this, then of course it is found in the scriptures. So far, no one has ever sufficiently been able to answer this question.

And it is better this way. If we believed that man could get saved through the revelation of creation itself, this would give us an excuse not to go out and evangelize the world.

So, worrying about this probably comes down to a total waste of time, we should just go out and preach Jesus.

And you know, I know we bump heads a lot, but I like our little debates. It is nice that we agree every once in awhile.

 

[The Archangel]

Believe it or not Archangel, I agree with your last post. :tongue3:

I have speculated about how people who have never heard the gospel might be saved. This is not unusual at all, thousands if not millions of Christians have asked this question through the centuries.

If there is an answer for this, then of course it is found in the scriptures. So far, no one has ever sufficiently been able to answer this question.

And it is better this way. If we believed that man could get saved through the revelation of creation itself, this would give us an excuse not to go out and evangelize the world.

So, worrying about this probably comes down to a total waste of time, we should just go out and preach Jesus.

And you know, I know we bump heads a lot, but I like our little debates. It is nice that we agree every once in awhile.

So, then, you would agree that the man in the Brazilian rainforest who has never heard of Jesus Christ would, upon death, go to Hell?

The Archangel

 

[Benoni]

God is not calling the whole world now. If He was they would have no choice.


Acts 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 (King James Version)
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor 1:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

 

[Winman]

So, then, you would agree that the man in the Brazilian rainforest who has never heard of Jesus Christ would, upon death, go to Hell?

The Archangel

No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that I do not know what revelation God gives to men like this who never hears the gospel. It is certain that all men have some revelation, because all are without excuse.

I am just speculating as to whether some revelation through creation might lead a man to trust in the true God. Jesus is truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It is difficult for us to walk in the shoes of some man who grew up in the jungles, isolated and never hearing the gospel. I have no way of knowing what goes through his mind and heart. But God does.

As I wrote earlier, Jesus clearly shows that a person is held accountable according to the knowledge and revelation they have. These persons having very limited or almost no revelation of God could not be expected to be held as accountable.

Again, this is all speculation, but if this man in the jungle were to clearly look at creation around him and realize there must be a God, and even realize he is a sinner, and look to that God for salvation, he might be saved.

Now, you will counter that he is not trusting in Jesus. I say he is, because he is trusting in truth, and all truth comes from Jesus, Jesus IS truth.

A few weeks ago I saw a very interesting program on PBS. It was about two pilots who were shot down and crashed in the jungles of Borneo (true story). They were terrified, because they had been told the jungles were inhabited by head hunters. They were actually more afraid of the head hunters than the Japanese who were searching for them.

But one day while drinking at a stream they found themselves surrounded by these strange natives. They thought they were done for sure. But to their surprise, one of the natives knew English and took them to their village. These were headhunters. But they knew of Jesus Christ from a missionary that had been there years before. Many were Christians. They hid these men from the Japanese for months until the men were actually rescued.

It was a fascinating story, they did not expect to find men who knew of Jesus in the darkest jungles of Borneo, but there were.

Here is that video, fantastic story.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1327179571/

 

[psalms109:31]

Condemnation

That person in the rain forest will face condemnation, and if it is for him to face eternity in hell, well God is just in His judgement. This is why we should be praying to God to send out more workers so Jesus will save all that has been given to Him from the condemnation from God.