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What is it Charismatics believe?

Plain Old Bill

New Member
What is thier theology? I don't know. Are they making it up as they go along.What makes them so popular?Are they a cult or are they headed that direction?
 

USN2Pulpit

New Member
Outward "gifts of the Spirit" are a hallmark of their belief - elevated above many things. It is, they believe, "evidence" of the Holy Spirit's indwelling - and without this evidence, you're probably not saved, according to them. The prevalent use (abuse - in my opinion) of tongues and being "slain-in-the-Spirit," as well as many other kinds of babbling are commonplace at their services. Funny thing is they can turn it on at the right time in the service and turn it right back off when it's time to quiet down. If you bring up the idea that there was no interpretation, they simply reply that they were talking in the language of the "heavenlies."
 
I heard one famous TBN evangelist say "shaka zulu" while "speaking in tongues. I worked with singers for a good share of my life, so I have a pretty good ear for inflections. The same "language" and limited sound choices are repeated over and over by the tongue talkers. Did God give us this extended language to speak in the natural, and then gave a very limited "language" for what many Charismatics and Pentecostals refer to as the "tongues of angels"?
 

Rich_UK

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Just to mention. Not all charismatics are involved in un-sound practice. I used to attend a charismatic church and they taught that the main evidence of the spirit is love, and being an effective witness. They also never permitted a person to start talking in *tongues* during a service, as they said that it doesn't make sense that the Holy spirit would interupt himself. The church's main pastor is Chuck Smith who has been linked with John Macarthur and C swindoll many times. They have documented that they appreciate the soundness from his ministry. I think we need to be carefull not to tar all charismatics with the same brush, and altho I don't go along with certain teachings, such as their view on spiritual gifts, I do appreciate them for their sound instruction in 99% of the teaching that I do agree with.

Thanks.
 

colorado_cop

New Member
Many Baptists believe that raising one's hands during worship, closing your eyes and focusing on the Lord, and becoming emotional (crying out to GOd) is a sign of charismaticism (is that a word). It's not. I guess they think you have to stare blankly ahead at the music pastor and mouth the words for it not to be. Anyhoo, it's not. One would have to carefully define Charismatic before we can define what "they" believe.
 

Rich_UK

<img src =/6181.jpg>
In the dictionary the word charismatic means (possessing an extraordinary ability to attract; "a charismatic leader"; "a magnetic personality" )
Or the websters dictionary defines it ( \Char`is*mat"ic\, a.
Of or pertaining to a charism.)
People have automatically grouped all third wavers together and pigeon holed them into pretty much the same belief system. "A charismatic is someone who is too into emotionalism and unscriptual practice, someone who falls over or laughs or "Barks" uncontrolabley." This isn't a joke, I even heard of a case where a certain church were Passing wind in the spirit. Where does it all stop? I think there is a big difference between charisma and charismania. We need to realise that not all people who lift their hands, or pray in "tongues" (whether its the true gift or not) , should be seen as together under the same contingent.
Thanks
 

qwerty

New Member
They believe the Bible is the Word of God. In their practice they look to the scriptures, such as the book of Acts and see the supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit. They see Paul's writings in 1 Cor. 12,13,14 as normative for the church today.
They do not agree with the cessationism, which says that the Holy Spirit stopped using the supernatural gifts at the end of the first century. They do not accept man's interpretation of the Bible that limits the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit to the first century.

In their practice, they have valid and mature believers, just like other denominations. They also have the young and immature who act immature, just like other denominations.

If you take an unbiased view of where Christianity is growing in the world, it is growing incredibly in South America, Africa, and Asia. While the cessationist denominations in the USA debate about whether the gifts are for today, the church in the much of the rest of the world looks very much like the charismatics that the cessationist denominations so like to deride.

Charismatic is becoming a word like any other derogatory term used to demean a group that somebody doesn't like. It means whatever you want it to mean.
 

qwerty

New Member
One further point:
Charismatics by and large accept the Bible as the Word of God, and accept the same doctrines as most Baptists.

They also believe that the Holy Spirit works in the same way today as in the first century.

This is what causes the division.
 

Bethelassoc

Member
I heard one famous TBN evangelist say "shaka zulu" while speaking in tongues
I can do one better. When I was in grade school, I remember going with my family to sing at a church, and this lady got up and started saying, "Mecca lecca high, mecca hiney ho".

This should make sense to those of you who remember Jambie from Pee Wee's Playhouse.
 

colorado_cop

New Member
Yea, and I'm sure there are people in the south who remember going to a Baptist church and seeing snakes handled as part of the worship service.

Let's not make a claim that all charismatics are as the clowns on TBN portray them to be.
 

Bethelassoc

Member
Yea, and I'm sure there are people in the south who remember going to a Baptist church and seeing snakes handled as part of the worship service.
I'm interested in knowing what Baptist sect does this.

As for labeling all Charismatics, no one has. I've some good friends that go to charismatic churches. Some hold to the scriptures well. It comes down to a matter of taste, for the most part.

But when it's foolishness that abounds, it's foolishness, regardless, and this wasn't on TBN.
 

superdave

New Member
You could read Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur, he talks about the many different types of doctrine and many of the various factions of pentecostal and charismatic churches, but still probably doesn't get all the varieties strait.

They are about as diverse if not more than Baptists. Some would be very close doctrinally to the Baptist Distincitves, with different interpretation of a few points.

Historically it would be primarily the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit that would cause a division, and not much else. Many believe in a separation of the events of Salvation and Spirit Baptism, that would be the primary difference from a Soteriological standpoint. Sometimes also called a second work of Grace, etc. You aren't really saved until the evidence of Spirit Filling is seen, Tongues or some other outward manifestation.
 

donnA

Active Member
Originally posted by colorado_cop:
Many Baptists believe that raising one's hands during worship, closing your eyes and focusing on the Lord, and becoming emotional (crying out to GOd) is a sign of charismaticism (is that a word). It's not. I guess they think you have to stare blankly ahead at the music pastor and mouth the words for it not to be. Anyhoo, it's not. One would have to carefully define Charismatic before we can define what "they" believe.
Thats kind of funny, we have a deacon I email with a lot and he swears anyone doing any of that is pentacostal. He grew up in a small country church, and his sife in a pentacostal church, so they see everything not just sitting there as being charismatic.
 

TC

Active Member
Site Supporter
So, they don't stand on the promises of God - they just sit on them?
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
John MacArthur explains how there were the Pentecostals that came at the beginning of the 20th Century, and then the Charismatics in the 1960's, and finally in the 80's came the Third Wave. Here is a description of their similarities and their differences:

Now, just a brief history. Historically, the Charismatic movement is the child of the Pentecostal movement. That began about 1900 and it went along for about 60 years and the Pentecostal Churches were primarily the Assemblies of God, the Four Square Church, and then there were some other smaller groups, the United Pentecostal group and so forth. But they were basically off to themselves. People used to call them the "Holy Rollers." They were a kind of a unique group that did not mainstream at all in Evangelical Christianity because of their strange beliefs.

In 1960 a remarkable thing happened. In 1960, not far from here, in Saint Mark's Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, California, Rector Dennis Bennett supposedly got the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And what happened was Pentecostalism jumped out of its own box and landed in Episcopalianism, and for the first time it transcended its denominational definitions. Since that time it has moved through the major denominations like a flood. It went beyond historical Pentecostal denominations and has continued to do that. That second movement is called the Charismatic Movement. They borrowed that concept of Charismatic because it is associated with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the believer.

But the Charismatic Movement can't be defined doctrinally. Why? Because it involves Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, anybody and everybody. So it resists, and has resisted any kind of doctrinal definition that is too rigid. What they all hold in common is an experience which they will call the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And they wrongly define the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a post salvation experience that adds something to your Christian life that you previously didn't have, and is usually is accompanied by signs and wonders, most particularly speaking in tongues. And we are going to talk much more about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Tongues at a later time. But once you have had that experience, you have sort of jumped into this new level of spiritual awareness, and you have reached the level of the Charismatic.
The term the "Third Wave" was coined by C. Peter Wagner who is a Missions professor at Fuller Seminary and the author of several books on church growth. He is really the leading proponent of the Third Wave philosophy and methodology. According to Wagner, he said, "The First Wave was the Pentecostal Movement, the Second Wave was the Charismatic Movement, and now the Third Wave is joining them." And by that he means an inundating wave of the power of the Holy Spirit manifesting itself in visible ways. And while acknowledging the Third Wave's spiritual ancestry, that is, that it is the third of those three, Wagner nonetheless rejects the label "Charismatic and Pentecostal." In fact, most of the people in the Third Wave don't want to be identified in that way. Wagner says,

The Third Wave is a new moving of the Holy Spirit among evangelicals who for one reason or another have chosen not to identify with either the Pentecostals or the Charismatics. Its roots go back a little further but I see it as mainly a movement beginning in the 1980's and gathering momentum through the closing years of the 20th century. I see the Third Wave as distinct from, but at the same time, very similar to the first and second waves. They have to be similar because it is the same Spirit of God who is doing the work. The major variation comes in the understanding of the meaning of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" and the role of tongues in authenticating this. I myself, for example, would rather not have people call me a Charismatic, I do not consider myself a Charismatic, I am simply an Evangelical Congregationalist who is open to the Holy Spirit working through me and my church in any way He chooses.


He refuses the label "Charismatic," not primarily because of any doctrinal distinction, but primarily because of the stigma attached to the name. It's important for me to mention that to you because if you talk to someone in the Third Wave they might endeavor to distance themselves from classic Pentecostalism or more contemporary Charismaticism, but the fact is that they are basically the Third Wave by their own admission of the very same kind of theology. It is accurate then to see the Third Wave as part of the whole Charismatic movement as we know it. While it is true that many who identify with the Third Wave will avoid using the term "Charismatic" and they'll even avoid using Charismatic jargon when writing or speaking about Spirit Baptism or other issues. Basically, the theology is the same. The terminology may change; the theology is for all intents and purposes identical. Most Third Wave teaching and preaching that I have listened to, that I have read, echoes standard Charismatic theology, and therefore in evaluating the Third Wave, we would assume that it is safe to say that the other issues that we have been discussing, that we find unbiblical in the Charismatic movement, are generally true of this movement as well, although there may be some individuals in the movement who would vary from that.

So at its very core it is an element of the Charismatic movement. At its core is an obsession with sensational experiences, a preoccupation with the "Charismata" that is, tongues, healings, prophecies, words of knowledge, visions, and ecstatic experiences, and that is, of course, where we find the indisputable link between the Third Wave and the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements. In all three movements there is a major absorption with these supernatural, sensational kind of power encounters or power displays as they like to call them. They de-emphasize what you and I would know as the traditional means of spiritual growth: prayer, Bible study, the teaching of the Word, and the fellowship of other believers. They don't intend to do that and they wouldn't do that in statement or even in print. But because of the very surpassing emphasis on the sensational experiences, those matters tend to get pushed significantly, if not all together, into the background. Pentecostals, Charismatics, and Third Wavers, all will affirm that any Christian who is not experiencing some supernatural events, some supernatural giftedness, some kinds of healings, some kinds of prophecies, words of knowledge, or manifestations of the Spirit of God, in visible tangible ways, is really stuck at a low level of spiritual progress; is denying the full power of God and denying himself the blessing of God.
Charismatic Chaos

Hope that helps.
DHK
 

AF Guy N Paradise

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Bethelassoc:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I heard one famous TBN evangelist say "shaka zulu" while speaking in tongues
I can do one better. When I was in grade school, I remember going with my family to sing at a church, and this lady got up and started saying, "Mecca lecca high, mecca hiney ho".

This should make sense to those of you who remember Jambie from Pee Wee's Playhouse.
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh yes, I remember. Sorry, but I was laughing pretty hard when reading about Jambie.
 

Ben W

Active Member
Site Supporter
If it helps, the modern Baptist Churches that are into the Charasmatic movement, the Pentecostal Freewill Baptists and the Full Gospel Baptists are often labelled as "Bapticostal".
 

Plain Old Bill

New Member
I guess these guys are walking on pretty dangerous ground.I find it difficult enough to understand prophecy as it is written in the Bible let alone trying to come up with new extra biblical stuff. I think the Bible says when we want someone healed who is sick , we take them to the elders of the church who annoint them with oil and pray over them.I have prayed for people many times and seen God heal. I have not laid hands upon them or seen them "slain in the Spirit", that's a new one on me.I pray all of the time and ask God for things but sometimes the answer is no.I don't understand name it and claim it God cannot be dictated to He is not a candy store.As to the speaking in tongues,every time with one exeption as I recall, someone spoke in tongues poeple got saved. My understanding also is we are to ask for spiritual gifts BUT God gives severally as HE Will.So we don't dictate to God our laundry list of spiritual gifts and He says okey dokey.
As I see these guys on tv they say if you can just figure out the rules you can get God to do anything.The secret of successful living, getting things from God,get power in your life, ect..., I thought it was God who is in charge.Us finding out His secret little formulas for getting an edge over Him sounds ludicous to me.

Am I getting this right?
 
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