What is Lordship Salvation?

[Reformed]

Sure, others may do the lumping, but even before this thread I could think of more than a few posters whose views on Cal-Arm didn't predicate their views on LS-FG.

You are probably right. I thought a mod would transfer it here anyway. What is done is done I guess.

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[Reformed]

John Owen identified the power to mortify sin as what Jesus spoke of in John 7:37-39 with the indwelling Spirit as a source of power to obey scriptural directives. God does not leave us without the ability to obey and work spiritually following after holiness in the life.

And that is the key. We do not resist sin in our own power. We resist sin by the power of the Holy Spirit.

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[tyndale1946]

So how many needy do I need to help to ensure my salvation? What's the formula?

I've also wondered the same thing Rob, but I believe my Salvation is in Christ and Christ alone!... There is nothing I can do to get it, he alone obtained it for me... Then there are these verses... You know the one about the sheep and the goats... Anyone on here want to tackle it?... Brother Glen

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[thatbrian]

I've also wondered the same thing Rob, but I believe my Salvation is in Christ and Christ alone!... There is nothing I can do to get it, he alone obtained it for me... Then there are these verses... You know the one about the sheep and the goats... Anyone on here want to tackle it?... Brother Glen

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

First, read it again, but look out for where you might have had a presupposition that isn't there in the text. See if Jesus isn't addressing two groups of people, not individuals.

Second, back in Matthew 7, Jesus says, "I never knew you". He didn't say, I used to know you, but then you didn't do quite enough (fill in the blank).

See if those two things help, at least a little.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Two questions:

1) Would the RYR have been saved from God's wrath had he sold everything he owned and gave it to the poor?

2) Are you saying that it is a necessary prerequisite of salvation to change one's behavior prior to coming to Christ?

I believe that not the RYR's actions but primarily the reason for his actions are the important thing. We can do the right thing for the wrong reason and it counts for nothing. Jesus said that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That's not because they're rich per se. It's because with wealth comes a sense of "I can do it all for myself by myself." A poor person or a person facing a very difficult situation in life (e.g. cancer, loss of a spouse, loss of a job, etc.) is far more likely to recognize that they need God's help and that nothing else can save them. I'm saying that a behavior change is a result of a genuine salvation experience not a prerequisite.

 

[Yeshua1]

How much sin can you still hold onto and practice?
Which of the 10 commandments are no longer in effect?

How many times do we all still sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

Because LS is often lumped in with Calvinism.

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I am a Calvinist who appreciates the intent of the LS bethren, but really think sometimes they tend to become a bit on the legalistic side of things on the extreme side of this position! I also feel those into "free grace" on their extreme emphasis it to such an extent one can still be lost and think right with God!

 

[Yeshua1]

With all due respect, Jesus is Lord whether we recognize it or not. Jesus does not become Lord when we decide He is Lord. He has always been Lord and will always be Lord. Jesus saw the true spiritual condition of the young ruler's heart; and while it was ruled by covetous over what he possessed, his real problem was unbelief.

This is the winning post here!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are complicating things. LS does not teach that we need to "make real our salvation". LS is about being a disciple of Jesus Christ and bearing fruit. It is not about inspecting another's progress. All those who are making accusations that LS is about "fruit inspecting" have missed the point. Perhaps there are some who are running around peering into the lives of others, inspecting their actions to see if they are real disciples. If they are doing that they have some real problems and need professional help. We are all on different levels vis-a-vis our level of sanctification (i.e. where we are in our Christian journey). But even though we are all different, we are all disciples and no disciple is ever called to do nothing. Jesus said that if we are His disciples we will love one another (JN 13:35). In that instance, love is a verb. It is also a mark of a disciple. That really is LS in nutshell. You become a disciple the moment you are born again. Even in that fledgling state you are learning and doing; you are exercising faith. If a professed convert has zero interest in the things of God, and that continues for an indefinite period, should we not be concerned about the genuineness of their profession?

I do agree with LS advocates that a true Christian should be maturing more in their faith and have good works accomping their salvation, but just uneasy with the extreme position of "either Jesus is lord over all, or is Lord over none at all!"

 

[HankD]

I do agree with LS advocates that a true Christian should be maturing more in their faith and have good works accomping their salvation, but just uneasy with the extreme position of "either Jesus is lord over all, or is Lord over none at all!"

I don't normally make judgments like this but that little ditty is ridiculousness because it is dependent upon fallacious human logic

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't normally make judgments like this but that little ditty is ridiculousness because it is dependent upon fallacious human logic

HankD

It is held by one of the big LS advocates!

 

[thatbrian]

How many times do we all still sin?

How many times?! How many times do I exhale every day?

 

[Yeshua1]

How many times?! How many times do I exhale every day?

I agree with that, was responding to our brothers posting!

 

[thatbrian]

I agree with that, was responding to our brothers posting!

I know.

I was agreeing with you. I should have said that in my post so that I was clear.

 

[TheGraceSide]

The Lordship Salvation controversy dominated seminaries and bible colleges in the late 1980's when John MacArthur published his book, "The Gospel According to Jesus" in 1988. The argument itself can trace its beginning decades earlier, but it became a full-blown controversy after MacArthur's book. The controversy split churches, seminaries, and even well-respected theologians and preachers. While the temperature of the controversy has dropped over the years, its substance still remains.

Lordship Salvation is often misunderstood. Some claim that is proponents are adding works to the Gospel. Those who have made that charge include Charles Ryrie, Dave Hunt, John Walvoord, and Zane Hodges. The actual controversy stems from the Bible's teaching on grace and sanctification. Since John MacArthur is still the leading voice from the Lordship Salvation side, I will quote his view on understanding the role of grace:



Sanctification is impacted because the non-Lordship position refutes that good works are a necessary sine qua non of the Christian life. Ephesians 2:10 teaches that Christians are "...His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

The Lordship Salvation position is that Jesus Christ is both Lord and Savior regardless of whether a sinner is converted. When a sinner is converted he experiences the beneficial aspects of Jesus as Lord and Savior; his sins are forgiven and he is now treated as a covenant-keeper, not a covenant-breaker. Jesus does not first become Savior and then becomes Lord at some later date (as is the de facto thought behind rededication ceremonies).

That is it for now. Let us see how this thread plays out.

I grew up being taught lordship salvation, and it really broke me down. As a teenager who desperately wanted to have the assurance of salvation, I believed when people said: "Jesus is going to spit you out of His mouth if you are lukewarm." So what did us teenagers do? Well, none of us knew how "hot" we needed to be to not be "lukewarm." Some gave up out of discouragement, thinking, "I'll never be good enough for God." Others, like me, resolved to become the very best human beings we could possible be in order to be good enough for God. So the law crushed me as I tried to behave my way to salvation. It was Jesus + Self-Reformation = Salvation.

This, of course, is nonsense, and I know it now. Nobody can ever be good enough for God. All have sinned and fall far short of the God's glorious standard. We must humble ourselves before God and reject every trace of self-righteousness or we will not be able to have the GIFT of salvation that God is giving away for free. It is offensive to God to keep insisting that we earn a gift He wants to give for free.

I'm now a pastor in the heart of New York City (Union Square, Manhattan) at Hope Hill Church. I wrote a book and it's on Amazon regarding my wrestling match with the Gospel and my thoughts on all of this. I'll put a link below. I encourage all of the wonderful people at our church to give every area of their lives to Jesus' lordship so He can renovate their lives. Yes, a believer should give every area of their lives to Jesus so He can teach them, clean them up, and raise them up to be all He calls them to be. But we should never think that turning from sin like this or doing good things adds any help to us being saved. No! Instead, we trust that Jesus did all the hard work when He was brutally killed on the cross as our great Substitute. He took the punishment for our sins so that the guilt is removed from our record. So we accept forgiveness and salvation by faith, and then we can freely obey God out of gratitude—not our of fear that God will throw us away.

I appreciate the conversation, and I hope we can all keep learning more about God's great plan for salvation. Have a nice day.


https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Plus-N...keywords=jesus+plus+nothing+equals+everything

 

[Reformed]

So we accept forgiveness and salvation by faith, and then we can freely obey God out of gratitude—not our of fear that God will throw us away.

With respect, I do not believe a right view of Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior in any way promotes fear. However, when we draw close to God it is impossible not to experience some of Isaiah's reality in Isaiah 6:4:

“Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.”

The debate between Lordship Salvation and Free Grace is often defined by their extremes. On the one hand, Lordship Salvation is accused of being legalistic and placing the yoke of the law on believers. On the other hand, Free Grace is charged with being antinomian and giving free license to sin. Some of these extremes come from uninformed pastors and Bible teachers who do not know what they believe and misrepresent what others believe. Other reasons for these extremes is due to the uncharitable nature of debate; seeking to demonize others instead of articulating the truth in love.

I believe that we are saved by God's glorious grace and that we bring nothing to this wondrous transformation from death to life other than our sin. But I also believe we are saved for a purpose and that purpose is clearly stated in scripture:

Ephesians 2:10 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Even though God created us to labor for the Kingdom, we fail repeatedly. After all, we are still a work in progress (Philippians 1:6). This is when we should praise God for the continuing gift of His grace; that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

 

[thatbrian]

I grew up being taught lordship salvation, and it really broke me down. As a teenager who desperately wanted to have the assurance of salvation, I believed when people said: "Jesus is going to spit you out of His mouth if you are lukewarm." So what did us teenagers do? Well, none of us knew how "hot" we needed to be to not be "lukewarm." Some gave up out of discouragement, thinking, "I'll never be good enough for God." Others, like me, resolved to become the very best human beings we could possible be in order to be good enough for God. So the law crushed me as I tried to behave my way to salvation. It was Jesus + Self-Reformation = Salvation.

This, of course, is nonsense, and I know it now. Nobody can ever be good enough for God. All have sinned and fall far short of the God's glorious standard. We must humble ourselves before God and reject every trace of self-righteousness or we will not be able to have the GIFT of salvation that God is giving away for free. It is offensive to God to keep insisting that we earn a gift He wants to give for free.

I'm now a pastor in the heart of New York City (Union Square, Manhattan) at Hope Hill Church. I wrote a book and it's on Amazon regarding my wrestling match with the Gospel and my thoughts on all of this. I'll put a link below. I encourage all of the wonderful people at our church to give every area of their lives to Jesus' lordship so He can renovate their lives. Yes, a believer should give every area of their lives to Jesus so He can teach them, clean them up, and raise them up to be all He calls them to be. But we should never think that turning from sin like this or doing good things adds any help to us being saved. No! Instead, we trust that Jesus did all the hard work when He was brutally killed on the cross as our great Substitute. He took the punishment for our sins so that the guilt is removed from our record. So we accept forgiveness and salvation by faith, and then we can freely obey God out of gratitude—not our of fear that God will throw us away.

I appreciate the conversation, and I hope we can all keep learning more about God's great plan for salvation. Have a nice day.


https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Plus-N...keywords=jesus+plus+nothing+equals+everything

Welcome to BB.

Unfortunately, our churches are filled with people who've had a similar experience as you have. I certainly did, and I believe it's because we all start from the default position of Pelagius. We think that we are capable of what we are not. Then we attend churches which preach law-lite, rather than the gospel, and that compounds the problem.

It is only by God's mercy that He brings us to the end of ourselves and our "righteousness" to a rest in Christ and His.

Looking back at my experience, which was a living nightmare, I think it could have been prevented or extremely lessened if I were in a Reformed church.

 

[HankD]

In my experience in the leadership roles for which I have been privileged to serve I know for some saints yielding completely may take years.

Some - maybe not in this life - saved yet so as by fire.

Easy believism?

What's the alternative? Difficult believism?

How do we know when we have arrived?

For me believing on the LORD Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do.
Taught by the Holy Spirit of course.

HankD

 

[Reformed]

In my experience in the leadership roles for which I have been privileged to serve I know for some saints yielding completely may take years.

Some - maybe not in this life - saved yet so as by fire.

Easy believism?

What's the alternative? Difficult believism?

How do we know when we have arrived?

For me believing on the LORD Jesus Christ is one of the easiest things I know how to do.
Taught by the Holy Spirit of course.

HankD

Hank,

No one will ever arrive in this life. Philippians 1:6 strongly infers we are a work in progress until God takes us home. Lordship Salvation has never been about perfection this side of eternity. It is about Christ and His proper role as Lord and Savior.

 

[HankD]

Hank,

No one will ever arrive in this life. Philippians 1:6 strongly infers we are a work in progress until God takes us home. Lordship Salvation has never been about perfection this side of eternity. It is about Christ and His proper role as Lord and Savior.

I think we are saying the same thing with different words. Yours are better if they include time in allowing for maturity.

But then again how do we define "His proper role" or measure "maturity" or quantify/qualify any other measure?

HankD