What is Lordship Salvation?

[convicted1]

Scripture sees and calls repentance as the responsibility of each individual as a condition for salvation and is not seperateable from faith which God has given to men.
Matt 9:13
But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat. 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 6:12
And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 13:3
And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: Exactly!! No repentance=no salvation.

 

[agedman]

Two items.

First, I have seen some highly regarded posters who say, "progressive sanctification" is taught throughout the NT.

Yet, NOT ONE verse that has the word referring to a progression that is applied to sanctification.

I consider many who are using the term (progressive sanctification) actually are misapplying the word (sanctify, sanctification, sanctified...) to how it is NOT used, but referring to a believer maturing by the work of the Holy Spirit and growth in understanding of the Word.

I point again to the tabernacle and all that pertained to it.

There was no modification, upgrading... but a confirming, statement, declaration, title, that the tabernacle/temple and all that pertained were sanctified. WE are the "temple" of the Holy Spirit. There is no "partial sanctification" no "progressive sanctification." One is either "holy" or not. One is not half born and has to self progress to the rest.

I have in more than one post encouraged the "progressive sanctification" holders to give in context a place were "sanctify" or any of the forms (sanctification, sanctifying,...) was used by the Scriptures to show "progress." At this time NONE has been offered.

A few offered have NOT been sanctification, but the maturing of the believer.

If I am wrong, PLEASE, show by Scriptures, or make the change in your own views.


As a result of the "progressive sanctification" view, there is also a problem with desiring to "mix" some human element into salvation; which brings this post to the second item.

Second, ANYTHING (even repentance) that is "conditioned" as what saves, is NOT Scriptural.

True repentance that is Godly is a result of having already been awakened by the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures to the need to repent. If the Holy Spirit and Scriptural authority are not present - the repentance is worldly and leads to death.

Repentance is the pouring out of the results of the work, not the initiator of the work.

If one conditions repentance as a "must" for salvation, that is man work and is NOT Scriptural.

Will Godly repentance take place in the heart and life of a believer? Of course.

Will worldly repentance take place in the heart of an unbeliever? Of course.

Repentance is NOT the key to salvation; BELIEF is.

Belief does not come by the will of a person, but by the ability given by God, by God's faith implanted into the person by the Holy Spirit and Word.

"All who hear my voice WILL come."

 

[DHK]

Lordship salvation teaches progressive sanctification. It is one thing to be surrendered to something and in this case Someone and another to get it done in experience. The flesh has to be dealt with through battles and failures but the heart is surrendered to the rule of the Master. Do you believe a person has to repent to be saved?

If the heart is always surrendered, why the need for progressive salvation, or overcoming battles? A continuously surrendered heart has no battles to overcome. A continuously surrendered heart is sinless.
I John 1:8,10 has some harsh things to say about that position.

Regarding repentance:
When Don asked you, in post #40 every Scripture that you answered him with was taken either from the gospels (pre-cross), or from the Book Acts (an historical account, a book in transition). Not one was taken from the doctrinal books of the epistles, even though Romans is a treatise on the the theme of soteriology. Why would that be? The gospel is clearly and succinctly set forth also in 1Cor.15:1-4; that also was ignored. Isn't it odd that those books that teach doctrine were ignored, while those books which emphasize history were used?

Repentance is needed to be saved. But perhaps you have a wrong definition of repentance. I will use the example of the Philippian jailer to demonstrate. When he asked "What must I do to be saved?" Paul simply answered, "Believe (have faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." He did not say repent.

When Saul of Tarsus came to the Lord, he believed, but didn't repent (according to the account).

Why? What happens when a person "believes" on the Lord Jesus Christ?
When Saul believed he immediately changed. He changed his attitude toward God. No longer was he the enemy of God persecuting Christians. He put away the letters that gave him authority to persecute Christians, submitted to God's authority, went to Annanias, was baptized and began to preach. That is what happens when a person believes on Christ as Lord. Christ becomes Lord. He becomes the object of his faith. If Christ is the object of his faith then whatever else was the object of his faith before that time must be discarded and Christ must be set on the throne of his heart. That is what faith in Christ does.

That is also what repentance is. It is the flip side of faith. The two are the opposite sides of the same coin. Repentance is a change of attitude with respect to God. Immediately Saul had a change of attitude toward Christ. He said, "Lord what would you have me to do?" He would never had previously called Christ Lord. Now his attitude had changed from rebellious to submission; from persecution to obedience. The definition is the same as faith, or at least the outcome is. They both produce the same result.
One cannot believe in Christ without repenting. They go hand in hand.

To ask if I believe in repentance, or if repentance is necessary for salvation is redundant. A person repents as soon as they put their faith in Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

If the heart is always surrendered, why the need for progressive salvation, or overcoming battles? A continuously surrendered heart has no battles to overcome. A continuously surrendered heart is sinless.
I John 1:8,10 has some harsh things to say about that position.

Because the heart is surrendered to a person. That never changes. The living it out is the difficulty while learning how to get the body to surrender to us.

Regarding repentance:
When Don asked you, in post #40 every Scripture that you answered him with was taken either from the gospels (pre-cross), or from the Book Acts (an historical account, a book in transition). Not one was taken from the doctrinal books of the epistles, even though Romans is a treatise on the the theme of soteriology. Why would that be? The gospel is clearly and succinctly set forth also in 1Cor.15:1-4; that also was ignored. Isn't it odd that those books that teach doctrine were ignored, while those books which emphasize history were used?

Repentance is needed to be saved. But perhaps you have a wrong definition of repentance. I will use the example of the Philippian jailer to demonstrate. When he asked "What must I do to be saved?" Paul simply answered, "Believe (have faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." He did not say repent.

The jailer was already in repentance by his statement. The next step is who to place that heart on which is faith.

When Saul of Tarsus came to the Lord, he believed, but didn't repent (according to the account).

Why? What happens when a person "believes" on the Lord Jesus Christ?
When Saul believed he immediately changed. He changed his attitude toward God. No longer was he the enemy of God persecuting Christians. He put away the letters that gave him authority to persecute Christians, submitted to God's authority, went to Annanias, was baptized and began to preach. That is what happens when a person believes on Christ as Lord. Christ becomes Lord. He becomes the object of his faith. If Christ is the object of his faith then whatever else was the object of his faith before that time must be discarded and Christ must be set on the throne of his heart. That is what faith in Christ does.

Paul who was Saul was already turned to God as he understood him. His heart was surrendered. He just did not have faith in Jesus. His experience brought him to the truth and he then placed that surrendered heart to God on the Son which was faith and was saved. Repentance and faith are needed for salvation.

That is also what repentance is. It is the flip side of faith. The two are the opposite sides of the same coin. Repentance is a change of attitude with respect to God. Immediately Saul had a change of attitude toward Christ. He said, "Lord what would you have me to do?" He would never had previously called Christ Lord. Now his attitude had changed from rebellious to submission; from persecution to obedience. The definition is the same as faith, or at least the outcome is. They both produce the same result.
One cannot believe in Christ without repenting. They go hand in hand.

To ask if I believe in repentance, or if repentance is necessary for salvation is redundant. A person repents as soon as they put their faith in Christ.

There are many people who believe in Christ and call it faith and never turn/surrender (repent) to God.
The religious Jew has the right God but the wrong Person so they are without proper faith for salvation. The religious, but lost gentile in the church has the right person, Jesus, but have not surrendered (repented) to God so they have faith without repentance and remain lost. It is impossible to be saved and not have surrendered to God. These people are sincere about their belief in Jesus for who He is. They have the intellectual understanding and belief, and they want forgiven so as to enter heaven, but confusing sincerity with faith is a death sentence.
Also while repentance is done in a moment as a total surrender it is never complete. We are told this 2 Cor 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
When looking at the Greek the passage would read;
Old things have passed away and are passing away, behold all things are new and becoming new.
What is being said there is that although everything has passed and become new this day, tomorrow will bring a new set of things to pass and become new. Each day is a new level of repentance and faith even though the day prior was all it could be.

So with that do you believe that a person can get saved by just believing in Jesus and remaining in rebellion against God's authority over them?

 

[agedman]

So with that do you believe that a person can get saved by just believing in Jesus and remaining in rebellion against God's authority over them?

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, I believe therefore I am saved.

No, a believer cannot "remain(ing) in rebellion against God's authority over them."

I would observe that some seem to mix repentance as a condition of salvation. When it is not.

There is no other name by which one is saved other than Christ Jesus and that name doesn't include Repentance.

Will a believer repent? Yes.

Do all believers repent? Yes.

Is repentance a "key" to salvation? No. For then it mixes some work of man; the devil will use that as a wedge of distraction from the truth. This is why some of the IFBers and WoF folks are "saved" over and over again. They didn't "perform" or were not "sorry enough" or didn't "repent fully" or...

 

[DHK]

If the heart is always surrendered, why the need for progressive salvation, or overcoming battles? A continuously surrendered heart has no battles to overcome. A continuously surrendered heart is sinless.
I John 1:8,10 has some harsh things to say about that position.

Because the heart is surrendered to a person. That never changes. The living it out is the difficulty while learning how to get the body to surrender to us.

If you are surrendered you will have no trouble living out the Christian life. When you are not surrendered is when you have difficulty. Why the dichotomy FAL? It is complete surrender does not come at salvation (except for the Apostle Paul). Did you forsake all and follow Jesus when you were saved? Did you sell all that you had, give to the poor, deny yourself, and follow him completely at salvation? If so, to whom did you give your things, and where did you go? There was no complete surrender was there? It wasn't LS was it?

Repentance is needed to be saved. But perhaps you have a wrong definition of repentance. I will use the example of the Philippian jailer to demonstrate. When he asked "What must I do to be saved?" Paul simply answered, "Believe (have faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." He did not say repent.

The jailer was already in repentance by his statement. The next step is who to place that heart on which is faith.

You statement does not make sense. What do you mean "the jailer was already in repentance by his statement" and where does the Bible say that? The statement makes doesn't even make grammatical sense, much less theological sense.

Paul who was Saul was already turned to God as he understood him. His heart was surrendered. He just did not have faith in Jesus. His experience brought him to the truth and he then placed that surrendered heart to God on the Son which was faith and was saved. Repentance and faith are needed for salvation.

More nonsense. He can't repent without faith. How do you get that he had already surrendered? He was on his way to Damascus when the Lord met in order to kill and torment Christians--hardly surrendered!! When the Lord appeared and revealed himself to him, he put his faith and trust in him by calling him Lord. That was the point of conversion. His surrender came after that when he said, "What will thou have me to do." Repentance came at the same time as faith. They are inseparable and two sides of the same coin.

That is also what repentance is. It is the flip side of faith. The two are the opposite sides of the same coin. Repentance is a change of attitude with respect to God. Immediately Saul had a change of attitude toward Christ. He said, "Lord what would you have me to do?" He would never had previously called Christ Lord. Now his attitude had changed from rebellious to submission; from persecution to obedience. The definition is the same as faith, or at least the outcome is. They both produce the same result.
One cannot believe in Christ without repenting. They go hand in hand.

To ask if I believe in repentance, or if repentance is necessary for salvation is redundant. A person repents as soon as they put their faith in Christ.

There are many people who believe in Christ and call it faith and never turn/surrender (repent) to God.

Then they haven't put their faith in Christ, have they? The God of the Jews is not the God of the Bible.

The religious Jew has the right God but the wrong Person so they are without proper faith for salvation.

You have just denied Christ! Christ is God. They rejected him, and will not put their faith in him.

The religious, but lost gentile in the church has the right person, Jesus, but have not surrendered (repented) to God so they have faith without repentance and remain lost.

Not so, they have not put their faith in Christ. Whatever would make you think that they have. I was a Catholic for 20 years. I believed many orthodox truths ABOUT Christ. That doesn't mean my faith was in Christ as my Savior. It has nothing to do with surrender. Surrender has nothing to do with salvation. When I got saved I was not completely surrendered to Christ at that time either. I had to grow as a Christian. That is sanctification.

It is impossible to be saved and not have surrendered to God.

You are denying sanctification.

These people are sincere about their belief in Jesus for who He is. They have the intellectual understanding and belief, and they want forgiven so as to enter heaven, but confusing sincerity with faith is a death sentence.

You must have a wrong definition of faith.
Faith is the only requirement set forth for salvation.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
--Do you deny the truth set forth in Romans 5:1
See also Acts 10:43; 16:31; John 3:16-18, 1Cor.15:1-4.
Do you deny these Scriptures? The all teach that salvation is by faith alone.
What happened to "sola fide"?

Also while repentance is done in a moment as a total surrender it is never complete. We are told this 2 Cor 5:17

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

You have no idea what that verse means do you?
Why not read it in its context. It means that all Christians are one in Christ--that the banker is just the same as the janitor, and not any better. His old life (as a banker) has passed away. His new life is on the same plane as the janitor, and the janitor's old life (of a janitor) has passed away. They are now one in Christ--equals. There was division in the church at Corinth. Paul was correcting that, and that is what he was teaching. This is a much misused verse.

When looking at the Greek the passage would read;

Old things have passed away and are passing away, behold all things are new and becoming new.
What is being said there is that although everything has passed and become new this day, tomorrow will bring a new set of things to pass and become new. Each day is a new level of repentance and faith even though the day prior was all it could be.

Not even the Greek can help you if you ignore the context. You don't have any idea of the true meaning of the verse.

So with that do you believe that a person can get saved by just believing in Jesus and remaining in rebellion against God's authority over them?

You put words in my mouth that I never said.
I said nothing about remaining in rebellion.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Your paradigm concerning salvation makes salvation into a works based salvation which the Bible does not teach.

 

[DHK]

This is why some of the IFBers and WoF folks are "saved" over and over again. They didn't "perform" or were not "sorry enough" or didn't "repent fully" or...

Repentance is not "being sorry."
Judas was sorry, and went out and hung himself. Being sorry doesn't accomplish anything when it comes to salvation.

 

[freeatlast]

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, I believe therefore I am saved.

No, a believer cannot "remain(ing) in rebellion against God's authority over them."

I would observe that some seem to mix repentance as a condition of salvation. When it is not.

There is no other name by which one is saved other than Christ Jesus and that name doesn't include Repentance.

Will a believer repent? Yes.

Do all believers repent? Yes.

Is repentance a "key" to salvation? No. For then it mixes some work of man; the devil will use that as a wedge of distraction from the truth. This is why some of the IFBers and WoF folks are "saved" over and over again. They didn't "perform" or were not "sorry enough" or didn't "repent fully" or...

Yes but no. I am not even sure what all that means. The bottom line is that the bible calls for repentance along with faith to be saved. Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

Repentance is not "being sorry."
Judas was sorry, and went out and hung himself. Being sorry doesn't accomplish anything when it comes to salvation.

I agree that being sorry is not repentance. However having Godly sorrow does lead to repentance which in turn leads to faith and salvation.

 

[McWilliams]

Believers come to understnd the Ordo Salutis, or order of salvation.
They are at first elected in eternity past, then in time they are regenerated and God declares them Justified. Justification occurs one time and is for life. The believer is progressively sanctified as he learns and grows in the image of Christ. Repentance is granted to the believer by God as declared in 2 Tim 2:25 and Acts 11:18. In his book Holiness the wonderful author J.C. Ryle states that we are commanded to grow and if we dont grow the chariot wheels of our soul will run heavy! To just read this book is to challenge oneself to holiness and increase your desire to be more in the image of Christ! Soli deo gloria!!

 

[agedman]

Yes but no. I am not even sure what all that means. The bottom line is that the bible calls for repentance along with faith to be saved. Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

I explained exactly why the answers were yes and no.

Maybe it is that you would rather claim some lack of understanding along with the thought that Acts 20:21 presents a mixture of items (one of them human effort) to be saved; you are using proof texting and not presenting the truth about salvation.

There is nothing a person "must do" to be saved. Paul made the answer extremely clear to the jailer just as Christ had made it clear to him on the road to Damascus. Belief is not human generated faith, but the results of the completed work of the Holy Spirit and Word.

 

[freeatlast]

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Your paradigm concerning salvation makes salvation into a works based salvation which the Bible does not teach.

Not according to the bible. Salvation is by grace and grace alone, not faith alone Eph 2:8-9. Faith is what opens the door to grace, but faith without repentance(surrender to God) is nothing but an empty shell of wishful thinking.
The bible never says there is no works involved in the salvation process, only that works do not save. Faith/repentance is a work and without it there is no salvation.
1Thess 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Thess 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[freeatlast]

I explained exactly why the answers were yes and no.

Maybe it is that you would rather claim some lack of understanding along with the thought that Acts 20:21 presents a mixture of items (one of them human effort) to be saved; you are using proof texting and not presenting the truth about salvation.

There is nothing a person "must do" to be saved. Paul made the answer extremely clear to the jailer just as Christ had made it clear to him on the road to Damascus. Belief is not human generated faith, but the results of the completed work of the Holy Spirit and Word.

Well then everyone on planet earth is saved if we do not have to do anything. Faith/repentance is what we have to do. We exercised a choice to repent and come to faith. If we did not have to then there is no reason to tell us to do it in the bible.

 

[agedman]

The believer is progressively sanctified as he learns and grows in the image of Christ.

There is NO Scriptural proof for progressive sanctification that I have found in the Bible.

If you think there is address it in the new thread on the topic, "progress or no progress.

Prove there is progressive sanctification before assuming you can include it.

I am not stating there is no maturing in the faith; such is right and good for the believer. That is NOT sanctification, and the progressive sanctification view is a misapplication of the term sanctification.

 

[freeatlast]

Believers come to understnd the Ordo Salutis, or order of salvation.
They are at first elected in eternity past, then in time they are regenerated and God declares them Justified. Justification occurs one time and is for life. The believer is progressively sanctified as he learns and grows in the image of Christ. Repentance is granted to the believer by God as declared in 2 Tim 2:25 and Acts 11:18. In his book Holiness the wonderful author J.C. Ryle states that we are commanded to grow and if we dont grow the chariot wheels of our soul will run heavy! To just read this book is to challenge oneself to holiness and increase your desire to be more in the image of Christ! Soli deo gloria!!

Try sharing that with the next person you want to lead to Christ. I will stick to repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as does the bible.

 

[DHK]

I agree that being sorry is not repentance. However having Godly sorrow does lead to repentance which in turn leads to faith and salvation.

Another passage you take out of its context, and apparently don't understand. The passage is speaking about believers, and a believer's repentance from his sin--probably the believer in 1Cor.5:1-5. He had repented and now the problem being addressed was the church's reluctance to take the repentant believer back into the church, for his sin was grievous.
It was Godly sorrow. The unsaved does not have godly sorrow. This man's godly sorrow led him to repentance over the sin he had committed. The NT does not teach repentance of sins for salvation. That is an OT concept. It teaches a repentance toward God (when speaking of salvation). After salvation believers are to repent of individual sins and confess them to God, as this man did.

 

[agedman]

Well then everyone on planet earth is saved if we do not have to do anything. Faith/repentance is what we have to do. We exercised a choice to repent and come to faith. If we did not have to then there is no reason to tell us to do it in the bible.

Again, you extrapolate to a conclusion that was not implied by my post.

The RESULTS of salvation by of the work of the Holy Spirit and Word is a person who expresses belief, repentance, acceptance, ...

These items do not of themselves have authority and power to bring anything to the unregenerate outside the authority of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

They cannot be expressed by the unregenerate unto any saving condition. Those verses have already been posted and discussed in the thread and shown of no saving value to the unregenerate.

To the regenerate, the items are indispensable.

 

[DHK]

Not according to the bible. Salvation is by grace and grace alone, not faith alone Eph 2:8-9. Faith is what opens the door to grace, but faith without repentance(surrender to God) is nothing but an empty shell of wishful thinking.
The bible never says there is no works involved in the salvation process, only that works do not save. Faith/repentance is a work and without it there is no salvation.
1Thess 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Thess 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

You admit then you have a works-based salvation just like all other religions--Hinduism and Islam.
Salvation is by faith alone.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God. (Romans 5:1)

 

[Judith]

I am at a loss. I heard some bad things about this board before I joined, but I did not believe it, but now I see it. I have never heard any Baptist preacher suggest that a person does not have to repent to be saved. I may need to leave this board. I need to pray. I just cannot believe this. My heart is sad.

 

[freeatlast]

Again, you extrapolate to a conclusion that was not implied by my post.

The RESULTS of salvation by of the work of the Holy Spirit and Word is a person who expresses belief, repentance, acceptance, ...

These items do not of themselves have authority and power to bring anything to the unregenerate outside the authority of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

They cannot be expressed by the unregenerate unto any saving condition. Those verses have already been posted and discussed in the thread and shown of no saving value to the unregenerate.

To the regenerate, the items are indispensable.

What ever that means. Repentance and faith are required on the part of the person to be saved and we can choose to exercise them or not.