What is necessary to become saved?

[Claudia_T]

Its my opinion that this person, xdisciplex, is going to keep on going round and round with this, trying to figure out what he can do to win God's approval and prevent himself from going to hell... and isnt going to get anywhere till he comes to the realization there isnt anything HE can do.

The first steps is what he needs to take. God apparently has been drawing him to Himself and his job is to stop resisting.

Repentence is definitely a prerequisite to salvation but this person needs to put first things first.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Repentance involves a true sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. A repentance such as this, is beyond the reach of our own power to accomplish; it is obtained only from Christ, who ascended up on high and has given gifts unto men.

Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour?

The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ.

Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts.

Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul.

 

[gekko]

and yet one can have a true sorrow for sin. and still not be saved. because they know not what sin is and against whom they sin.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Matt that is the only way to reconcile faith and works. They can not go together any other way. That's why people have struggled with so many verses in the NT. That's why Martin Luther had such a hard time with the book of James. He didn't see how grace and works could be reconciled, so he basically wrote off the book of James.

Well he's right. Grace and works don't mix. He just didn't understand, as most people don't that works are involved in the salvation of the soul, which is really just another way of describing sanctification.

There is no denying that grace is taught and that works are taught. Most people try to cram works into grace by saying that one must "prove" their salvation by works, better known as Lordship salvation. But that is a works salvation that these people just don't acknowledge. Works and grace do not mix at any time or in any way.

It is easily reconciled through scripture.

The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11-12), yet most men are lost (Matt 7:13-14). Therefore man has some responsibility or role in the matter, since God does not want anyone to perish (II Pet 3:9).

Obedience does not earn any part of one's salvation, yet you cannot be saved without it. Heb 5:9 states, "He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation".

Heb 11:6 tells us that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Heb 11 then goes on to give example after example of faith.

Heb 11:30 states that the walls of Jericho fell by faith. Joshua 6:2 says that God had given them Jericho, therefore, it was a gift. When did the walls of Jericho fall, when they first believed or when they believed and were obedient? Isn't it obvious, that doing what God said is called faith?. That's God's definition and His examples of faith, not mine. Without this type of faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to be pleasing to God.

One is not saved by belief only because that would make Jesus a liar, which He is not.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". One either accepts this and obeys it in faith (Gal 3:26-17, Col 2:12) or they reject God.

Before their conversion, some of the Corinthians were sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who practiced homosexuality, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers, not a very distinguished group.

Paul affirms this "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." - I Cor 6:11.

They were not in the process of being washed, justified, or sanctified. These were past actions.

How is one washed in the name of the Lord Jesus? The same way that one calls on the name of the Lord, or in other words submits to Jesus authority. What did Jesus say? "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Mark 16:16. All authority had been given to Him at this point (Matt 28:18-20). In Acts 2, how were they washed in the name of the Lord? Peter told them, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins". - Acts 2:38. How did Saul of Tarsus have his sins washed away? "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord". - Acts 22:16

The Corinthians had been baptized (Acts 18:8). They were washed, sanctified, and justified (I Cor 6:11).

It is God who washes, sanctifies, and justifies and man cannot earn any part of this, but it is only for those who submit to Him (Heb 5:9).

 

[Eric B]

And in all of your quotes of Hebrews, you miss the what it is all building up to" v.40 "God having provided something better for us, that they may not be made perfect without us".
While it is possible to do works in faith, and for grace to be the instructions on what to do to save yourself, still, those were Old Testament examples of temporal goals (such as bringing the walls of Jericho down). Yet man still showed that even by doing works, he still did not do it consistently enough to fully please God. So inthe New Covenant, while we are still supposed to do works to please God, salvation is not placed on the works. No one is saying to try and get by without works. But it is clearly not what saves.

And as much as you try to deny that salvation is earned in your system, that is exactly what your mechanical salvation by baptism transaction is, because you misunderstand the scriptures you cite to try to prove your point. A person in the NT coming to be saved would be baptized in the process. But it is not the baptism that does the saving. It is not the water that spiritually washes, or "puts you into Christ". Those are spiritual transactions, not physical ones.

 

[J. Jump]

Obedience does not earn any part of one's salvation, yet you cannot be saved without it.

You contradict yourself in the same sentence, yet you either don't see it or you choose not to see it.

If your works, my works, Jo Boo's works are involved, in ANY fashion, then it is no longer grace. There is NO other way to look at that. Grace does not come through works it comes through faith apart from works.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Obedience does not earn any part of one's salvation, yet you cannot be saved without it.

You contradict yourself in the same sentence, yet you either don't see it or you choose not to see it.

If your works, my works, Jo Boo's works are involved, in ANY fashion, then it is no longer grace. There is NO other way to look at that. Grace does not come through works it comes through faith apart from works. </font>[/QUOTE]Ahhhh, I don't contradict myself, you are just blind to the truth.

Did God contradict Himself when He stated, "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," - Heb 5:9

and

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Eph 2:8-9

James said, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

The answer is a resounding NO!!!

You describe a dead, useless faith (James 2:17), the same kind that the demons have (James 2:19).

When was the scripture fulfilled that said "Abraham believed God"? When he believed or when he obeyed? James tells us so we don't have to wonder, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God." - James 2:21-23

Not one person in all of scripture is ever called faithful who ignored the instructions given to them by God.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8), yet God didn't build the ark for him. No, by faith, Noah prepared an ark (Heb 11:7). Why? For the saving of his household. He was physically saved by grace through faith. That is a type of saving, which baptism is the antitype which saves us spiritually (I Pet 3:21), not because there is power in the water, but because God said so (Mark 16:16).

Let me illustrate, did the childern of Israel earn the walls coming down? NO! If you think they did, then you could perform those same actions today and God would owe it to you to make the walls fall down. The walls fell by faith. God did it. Jericho was a gift (Joshua 6:2), yet action was required for them to receive that gift. They in no way earned any part of that gift, in fact, their actions don't make any sense whatsoever, other than the fact that God said to do it. There is nothing of merit in marching around a city.

When a person submits to baptism, they are submitting to the command of God in faith, because quite frankly, baptism makes about as much sense as marching around a city, or dipping in the Jordan river 7 times, or looking at a brass snake. It is foolishness to many people, even among many religious folks today.

I Cor 1:27-29, "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God."

There is nothing of merit in being submerged beneath the water, but I did it because God said that is what I need to do to be saved and have my sins washed away.

I can see value in confession. I know that Jesus is Lord and I make that confession. I can see value in repentance, I want to change my life and live for the one who died for me. I cannot see the value in baptism. Through faith, I submit to it and I can have no cause for boasting or glory, because I can't even figure it out. I am raised from the watery grave a new creation by the powerful working of God (Col 2:12, Rom 6:3-4).

There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation. If there was, then I could have reason to boast.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
And in all of your quotes of Hebrews, you miss the what it is all building up to" v.40 "God having provided something better for us, that they may not be made perfect without us".
While it is possible to do works in faith, and for grace to be the instructions on what to do to save yourself, still, those were Old Testament examples of temporal goals (such as bringing the walls of Jericho down). Yet man still showed that even by doing works, he still did not do it consistently enough to fully please God. So inthe New Covenant, while we are still supposed to do works to please God, salvation is not placed on the works. No one is saying to try and get by without works. But it is clearly not what saves.

And as much as you try to deny that salvation is earned in your system, that is exactly what your mechanical salvation by baptism transaction is, because you misunderstand the scriptures you cite to try to prove your point. A person in the NT coming to be saved would be baptized in the process. But it is not the baptism that does the saving. It is not the water that spiritually washes, or "puts you into Christ". Those are spiritual transactions, not physical ones.

Of course those are OT examples, given the in the NT. Heb 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Do you think He knows what is pleasing to Him and what is not?

He gave US those examples of faith.

Now, are you saying that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about when He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Mark 16:16 or the Holy Spirit was mistaken when He said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38 (See Acts 2:4)?

 

[J. Jump]

mman you can continue to believe that if you want to, but you contradicted yourself plain and simple.

You compare Ephesians 2 to James. You are comparing apples and oranges. They are talking about two totally different matters. One is talking about grace and the other is talking about works.

They don't mix. As much as you and other people want them to they don't mix. Grace is not grace if your works are invovled. If you are working you are not receiving a gift, but wages for work done.

I don't know why you can't see that or you choose not to see that, but it is that plain and simple.

 

[Eric B]

Of course those are OT examples, given the in the NT. Heb 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Do you think He knows what is pleasing to Him and what is not?

He gave US those examples of faith.

Now, are you saying that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about when He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Mark 16:16 or the Holy Spirit was mistaken when He said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38 (See Acts 2:4)?

Still, you miss that the OT references were examples, and "something better" is promised us. In other words, "faith pleasing God" is still the same principle that was founded upon the OT examples, but where back then; He required physical works, the NT shows that that was "of the flesh", and God is working "through the Spirit" now. So there continued to be a physical act associated with a person's coming to Christ, and if one wanted to receive remission of sins and be saved; he would repent, and then show it publicly by being baptized. You keep turning these verses around (in insinuation) to "he who is not baptized shall not be saved", and this has been pointed out time and time again. But baptism is not the focus of salvation.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Of course those are OT examples, given the in the NT. Heb 11:6 says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Do you think He knows what is pleasing to Him and what is not?

He gave US those examples of faith.

Now, are you saying that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about when He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Mark 16:16 or the Holy Spirit was mistaken when He said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38 (See Acts 2:4)?

Still, you miss that the OT references were examples, and "something better" is promised us. In other words, "faith pleasing God" is still the same principle that was founded upon the OT examples, but where back then; He required physical works, the NT shows that that was "of the flesh", and God is working "through the Spirit" now. So there continued to be a physical act associated with a person's coming to Christ, and if one wanted to receive remission of sins and be saved; he would repent, and then show it publicly by being baptized. You keep turning these verses around (in insinuation) to "he who is not baptized shall not be saved", and this has been pointed out time and time again. But baptism is not the focus of salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]Baptism puts one into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27). There is no other way INTO Christ.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
mman you can continue to believe that if you want to, but you contradicted yourself plain and simple.

You compare Ephesians 2 to James. You are comparing apples and oranges. They are talking about two totally different matters. One is talking about grace and the other is talking about works.

They don't mix. As much as you and other people want them to they don't mix. Grace is not grace if your works are invovled. If you are working you are not receiving a gift, but wages for work done.

I don't know why you can't see that or you choose not to see that, but it is that plain and simple.

Had God given Jericho to them (Joshua 6:2)? Was any action required for them to recieve the gift (Heb 11:30, Josh 6)? What merit was there in any action they performed? When did the walls fall "by faith", when they first believed or when they were obedient?

 

[J. Jump]

mman once again you are comparing apples and oranges. Jericho is not a picture of salvation by grace through faith. Jericho is a picture of victorious Christian living if we have faith and are obedient.

If you want to see the OT picture of salvation by grace through faith then you have to go to Exodus 12 where the lamb was slain and the blood was applied.

 

[Eric B]

And you're still just reiterating the same old points we have already answered.
A person is put into Christ by believing on Him. They would demonstrate it by being baptized. But the baptism cerrmony is not what itself puts them into Christ. You on one hand keep denying there is power in the water, and that one could be baptized without receiving Christ and still be saved, but your line of reasoning here would suggest precisely that.

[ May 03, 2006, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[gekko]

J.Jump said:

"If your works, my works, Jo Boo's works are involved, in ANY fashion, then it is no longer grace. There is NO other way to look at that. Grace does not come through works it comes through faith apart from works."

show me your faith without works.
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." - James 2:18

hmm?

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
mman once again you are comparing apples and oranges. Jericho is not a picture of salvation by grace through faith. Jericho is a picture of victorious Christian living if we have faith and are obedient.

If you want to see the OT picture of salvation by grace through faith then you have to go to Exodus 12 where the lamb was slain and the blood was applied.

I got one Bible verse for ya...


1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

How do you reconcile this idea that our works have nothing to do with our salvation in light of this Bible verse?

Claudia

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
And you're still just reiterating the same old points we have already answered.
A person is put into Christ by believing on Him. They would demonstrate it by being baptized. You on one hand keep denying there is power in the water, and that one could be baptized without receiving Christ and still be saved, but your line of reasoning here would suggest precisely that.

I have verses that show one is baptized into Christ.

Where are your verses that void Rom 6:3-4, and Gal 3:27 and show from the scriptures that one gets into Christ by only believing?

Your trying to make a logical connection, just accept what God has revealed in His word by faith, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16), baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), baptism puts us into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27, baptism is by faith (Gal 3:26-27, Col 2:12), God is working during baptism (Col 2:12).

If you can understand that God used water to cleanse Naaman of leprosy then you can understand how he uses water to cleanse us of sins. Now, did the water cure Naaman's leprosy or did God? Could Naaman have been cleansed without being obedient? When was he cleansed, on the way to the water or after he was obedient.

God is powerful. By the same power He used to raise Jesus from the dead, He can also raise me from my death and watery grave of baptism alive, forgiven of my sins, walking in a new life (Col 2:12-13, Rom 6:3-17).

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko you are going the way of mman. You are comparing apples and oranges. The book of James has nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith. That book was written to saved folks already. They didn't need to hear more about salvation by grace through faith.

The book of James deals with the salvation of the soul (chapter 1 - also called the sanctification of the believer).

The Bible can not be any more clear on grace being apart from anyone's works other that Jesus in Ephesians 2:8-9. Why is that verse so hard to take by what it says. It says apart from works lest any man should boast.

 

[J. Jump]

Claudia I've got two Bible verses for you. Ephesians 2:8-9 and here they are: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

That should be enough, but just to address your question I John is not talking specifically about salvation by grace through faith. That book is written to believers. There is no need for him to address something that they already have.

Folks it doesn't matter how you try to make it fit, cram it in or force feed it you can not get a square peg into a round hole without tearing things up. Grace and human works do not mix.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
You on one hand keep denying there is power in the water, and that one could be baptized without receiving Christ and still be saved, but your line of reasoning here would suggest precisely that. [/QB]

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say?

There is no power in the water, the power is in God.

Baptism for the remission of sins is absolutly requried for salvation (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, I Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:3-4).

The water is how we come in contact with the blood, where the POWER IS!

What came from Jesus side at his death? Blood and water. Conincidence? I think not.

Matt 26:28 blood "for the remission of sins"
Acts 2:38 baptism "for the remission of sins"

This alone shows that we come in contact with the blood at baptism (water and blood).

The old Test example of the tabernacle. The sacrifice was upon the alter. The Laver was between the alter and the holy place. To enter the holy place, you had to wash, else the penalty was death. They didn't wash after they were already in the holy place.

Heb 10:19-22, "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."

Again, you have the blood and water. Only after having the blood and water could you enter the holy place.

Heb 9:19-22 "When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Again, we have the water and the blood being used together. The power is in the blood, because without the sheding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

I Jn 5:6-8 "This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree."

The Spirit, water, and blood all agree as one. They all come together in baptism.