What is necessary to become saved?

[gekko]

one cannot be saved if they do not have works.

they can go and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, sing praises to him, read the word, have all the head knowledge...

and still not be saved. because they do nothing for the gospel. they dont practice what they preach.

"the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is christians. who ackknowledge Jesus with their lips but deny him by their lifestyle. that is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" - dctalk

can't just give ups for lip service. there's got to be the actions.

but even still. it all comes down to the heart and where the heart is at. no we are not saved by works we've got that down already, no need to be said anymore.

"many will say Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, healed in your name?" and God's gon' say back "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, i never knew you"

NEVER KNEW YOU! if we do not have a repentant heart towards God.

again. one cannot be saved simply by giving lip service. one cannot be saved by having both lip service and christ-like works. no, not just these things alone - but by the grace of Christ!

Jesus has offered payment for our sins. we cannot just say "yes i will take it"
no. we've got to go up to the Judge and take it physically.

I've got $20 in my hand. you notice this from 10ft away. if you just think that the $20 is yours... it isn't really yours is it? it isn't yours until you come and physically take it from me after i've offered it to you.

what saves us? Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko you are contradicting yourself like mman. You ask what saves us then respond Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, but at the very beginning of your post you say one can not be saved unless they have works.

It can't be both. It's either Jesus or it is our works. The two are like oil and water. They don't mix. And more importantly the Bible doesn't teach both.

 

[Eliyahu]

Epistle James is connected with Matt 7:16-22.
If there is no turning point of changing lifestyle, there is no Salvation.
If anyone is born again, the change of lifestyle follows after it.

 

[gekko]

dude. it makes sense.

did you understand the anecdote i displayed?

there are works in accepting Jesus Christ? no?
can't just think we got the Lord. we gotta have action.

I thank the Lord the disciples didnt just stay in the upper room and offer praises to Jesus. they didnt just offer praises but went out and spread the gospel!

Jesus Christ has offered grace.
that is not what saves us. its not just Jesus Christ offering us grace that saves us.
its us accepting it and putting it on like a parachute. <-- that there is the action - putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

ok. i guess what im getting at is this: once we are saved - then all the good works and fruits of the spirit should come naturally if a true convert.

there we go. i couldn't find the right wording. you probably all said that before. but i guess im blind in one eye can't see out the other - physically. haha. joking.

once we accept and put on the Lord Jesus Christ - we are then saved. the the Christ-like works, actions, and fruits of the spirit should come naturally.

a christian without the fruits of the spirit is not a christian "good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit"

is that better? im trying to understand this myself here. is that more biblical?

 

[Eliyahu]

If we return to OP title, I think the True Repentance is required to be saved. Salvation after the true repentance brings another change in lifestyle.

 

[gekko]

isn't that what i just said?

amen for that though bigE.

 

[J. Jump]

Eliyahu Matthew 7:16-22 is talking about false prophets not false salvations. There are saved individuals that are false prophets.

dude. it makes sense.

I guess you have convinced yourself that it makes sense, but its human sense and not Biblical sense because grace and works can not mix. If human works are in the picture then it is no longer grace but wages that you are due. So you can either receive your salvation via grace or you can earn your salvation via works. Ephesians 2:8-9 says we receive salvation by grace through faith. We do not earn it, so that takes works out of the picture period. There is no more room for discussion. If anywhere else in the Bible includes grace and works together then the Bible has contradicted itself and we know that is an impossibility.

did you understand the anecdote i displayed?

Sorry but your anecdotes or my anecdote or Joe Boo's anecdotes don't mean squat. All that matters is what the Bible teaches. Our lives, thoughts, beliefs and theology must be shaped by the Bible not us shaping the Bible to fit our needs.

[QUTOE]there are works in accepting Jesus Christ? no?[/QUOTE]
AMEN...now just stop there and you've got it.

can't just think we got the Lord. we gotta have action.

Yes the Bible requires action after you are saved, but it is not a given that these actions will be accomplished.

We have to remember that when we are born from above we are born as babies. Proper action for babies is not an automatic, it is learned. So if that is true for natural babies, why do we expect spiritual babies to be good workers without any teaching? Doesn't make sense.

So if there is a spiritual baby in Christ that never gets discipled are they going to do good works or are they going to continue the lifestyle that they knew? Eventually they will return to what they knew. Our sin nature doesn't disappear and if we don't teach folks that they have to die to self not only daily, but moment by moment the flesh will win.

I thank the Lord the disciples didnt just stay in the upper room and offer praises to Jesus. they didnt just offer praises but went out and spread the gospel!

Amen to that, but it doesn't have anything to do with their salvation by grace through faith.

Jesus Christ has offered grace.
that is not what saves us. its not just Jesus Christ offering us grace that saves us.
its us accepting it and putting it on like a parachute. <-- that there is the action - putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes we have to receive the gift, but outside of receiving the gift there is no other action required. And we receive by believing, no physical action required.

ok. i guess what im getting at is this: once we are saved - then all the good works and fruits of the spirit should come naturally if a true convert.

No they don't come naturally. That's why discipleship is so vitally important. The flesh comes naturally, not the spirit. Unless we sacrifice the flesh the flesh will rule. Sacrificing the flesh or dying to self is not natural.

a christian without the fruits of the spirit is not a christian "good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit"

The Scripture you are quoting is talking about false prophets not false Christians.

is that better? im trying to understand this myself here. is that more biblical?

Unfortunately not it is not better nor any more Biblical.

One thing that you have to remember is to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

 

[J. Jump]

Double Post - Not sure what's up with the site - sorry.

 

[J. Jump]

Double Post - Not sure what's up with the site - sorry.

 

[gekko]

false prophets - false christians - false brethren - false anything... its still false.

good tree's cannot bring forth good fruit. that's biblical.

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok. i guess what im getting at is this: once we are saved - then all the good works and fruits of the spirit should come naturally if a true convert.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No they don't come naturally. That's why discipleship is so vitally important. The flesh comes naturally, not the spirit. Unless we sacrifice the flesh the flesh will rule. Sacrificing the flesh or dying to self is not natural."

that's what i meant. also true converts will "desire the sincere milk of the word"

"Yes we have to receive the gift, but outside of receiving the gift there is no other action required. And we receive by believing, no physical action required."

i agree. works are just the proof that we believe.

i agree with what you are saying, now that it makes more sense biblically.

i just use anecdotes so that people may understand on a different level. i hate shaping the bible to fit my standards - that's not Christ-like at all.


but another thing - which does not contradict what i've said or what you've said Jjump is this:
yes we are saved by grace of Jesus Christ.
but if there is no proof in our lifestyle that we are saved. then are we really saved? have we a true repentant heart?

 

[Eliyahu]

I think this board need some cleaning work, theseday. It is not only you and me that have troubles in posting. Many experience the situation where the post doesn't go thru, then when I re-button, I found the double posts.

BTW, Matt 7:16-23, especially 7:16-20, talks about the false prophets. The false prophets mean that they were not truly born-again and don't have the Holy Spirit in them, they didn't do any work according to the Holy spirit. Therefore it is related to the salvation, no doubt. Not only myself, many testify this relates to the Salvation.
One thing I want to remind you is the question, What was the answer from God when you prayed God for the forgiveness of sins? Any Guess or Any Estimation is the human solution. But when you heard the voice of God, it is very much clear and powerful to change the lifestyle.
Do you have that experience personally? Do you have the specific timing of Jesus coming into your heart?
I ask this question, because you have never brought the anwer to my question, " What was the answer from God, when you prayed Him to forgive your sins? Have you ever prayed God until you get the answer?"

This makes big, big difference!

 

[Eliyahu]

A Good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits (Mt 7:18)
Good trees may make some mistakes or show weakness sometimes.

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko no where in the Bible are we required to prove our salvation. I think all would agree that salvation by grace through faith is between the person believing and God. So why does he/she have to "prove" to you, me, Joe Boo or anybody else that they have believed?

The only person that matters is God. Now granted most believers start out in good works, but some fall away from the works and return to the old lifestyle for whatever reason. Who are you, or am I or is anybody else to say that because they are no longer living the Christian life that they haven't truly been saved. That is arrogant on our part to say we can know one way or the other.

The Bible says we can't even know our own hearts, much less anyone elses.

The false prophets mean that they were not truly born-again and don't have the Holy Spirit in them

That is a man-made meaning that you have given the text. That text does not tell us that nor is that implied in any way.

When a Christian sins it is the bad tree that is at work. When a Christian does what they are called to do by God that is the good tree at work in them.

We are not completely good trees or completely bad trees. We have both an alive spirit that is in the light, but we return our flesh and our soul which is still in darkness.

We we die to self and walk by the Spirit then we are walking as children of God, friends of God, etc.

However when we allow the flesh to control our actions we are no longer friends of God, we are not walking as children of God, but rather as children of the Devil.

If we keep this in mind it will really help us with some of these passages.

We must let the text speak for itself and not assign our own personal meanings in an effort to make Scripture fit into an already learned theology. We must allow Scripture to mold us not the other way around.

 

[gekko]

"oh Joe's doing real good in his walk with the Lord, but sometimes at home he beats his wife..."

"there's this preacher, who loves to give council to people. one day, at 3am in the morning, a guy wanted council at his house. so the guy comes in and sits in the living room. a little while later the preacher walks through the door into the living room and the guy who wanted counil took the machete he had in his hand and swung down on the back of the neck of the preacher. blood was all over the wall. his sons thought he was dead and almost killed the guy who did it. the next day a pastor phoned another pastor and said "that guy went to my church! fancy that, another christian doing that to the pastor!" the other pastor said "hold on a minute, if some guy tries to cut the head off the senior pastor, you could probably come to the conclusion that he lacks somewhat in the area of 'love, joy, peace, goodness, selfcontrol etc.'"

folks. we have got to stop embracing those that name the name of Christ and saying "you're a christian you've given your heart to Jesus"

a true convert will desire the sincere milk of the word - will depart from iniquity - will hate sin - and will have the fruits of the spirit. that is biblical - dont tell me its not cause you aint goin nowhere.

if there is no proof that a person is a true convert. how do we know that person is saved? we dont. therefore assume that the person is not saved and then witness.

"wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
the couple verses before:
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

bible says "a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt three bring forth good fruit."

get off the "oh its only talking about false prophets" anybody who claims to be a christian - but is not inwardly or outwardly is false. whether its false brethren or false teachers or false prophets - WE WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. therefore if we have the fruits of the spirit - that is the proof of a true convert, true repentance - therefore a person who is truly saved.

we can be grafted-out as easily as we are grafted-in (romans 11)
a true convert hates sin. therefore a true convert FALLS INTO sin rather than when a false convert sins that is dying in their sin.
paul says in Romans 7:15+ "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For i Know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

if one hates sin, yet sins against his will. its not him that sins but the sin that dwells within. (v.17)

"who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
listen to what is said after:
"SO THEN with the MIND I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
with the mind is the obediance of the law of God - if it is in the mind - it is in the actions. no?
can't just say "oh im not going to lie"
and then go lie. can ya? that's hypocrasy (sp?).

yes only God knows the heart of man.
but we can point out the tears from the wheat.
the sheep from the goats.
etc.
right?

those who fall away into old lifestyle never repented in the first place. i believe that much. which is biblical. if you say it is not - provide some scripture. i already have along with some anecdotes at the beginning to help understand.

here's another:
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit"

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko unfortunately you are way off track. Again you post with just bits and pieces of Scripture that you are trying to make fit your theology, but they don't even speak to the issue you are talking about.

Please show me one Scripture where it says that we have to prove we are Christians.

Please show me one Scripture where it says that you are saved by grace through faith, plus works. It doesn't exist.

Again how do you explain a gift that is given, but must be worked for. Has anyone given you a gift in your life that they then required proof from you that you received that gift? I would suspect not.

So if there is no earthly person that gives a gift and then demands proof that the gift was given, why would you think a Perfect God would?

If you all would just stop and think about what you are saying it doesn't even make sense in human logic, much less spiritual logic.

Please explain to me why it is necessary that I prove to you or to anyone else that I am saved or not.

Please explain to me how you are capable of judging another man's heart, when the Bible says that you can't even know your own heart.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Gekko no where in the Bible are we required to prove our salvation. --------


The Bible says we can't even know our own hearts, much less anyone elses.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The false prophets mean that they were not truly born-again and don't have the Holy Spirit in them

That is a man-made meaning that you have given the text. That text does not tell us that nor is that implied in any way. </font>[/QUOTE]On some snipped part, you are right, we sometimes return to the old life style. If anyone denies it, he is telling lies.

On the other hand Bible asks us to prove our faith:
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves , whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates?

1 Cor 3:16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you ?


You may be lacking something in you.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

There's always one more monkey wrench?

Maybe not so much prove...

As much as not being ashamed?

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

It doesn't say 'not saved'...

But, does anyone *really* want Jesus to be ashamed of them?

I have always understood 2 Corinthians 13:5 to mean I examine myself for my own benefit... Not that it is a proving to 'others'...

Kind of in the same vein as...

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Mike Sr.

 

[Eliyahu]

S-M-M,

You may be confused between Katakrima, Krima and Dokimazo, peirazo, which means Judgment and Discernment.

We have to discern what is wrong and what is right, which is different from criticism or condemnation.

How can you be assured that you can go to heaven, without having conviction of being saved or being born-again ?

 

[Eric B]

There is just one baptism. The baptism that puts us into Christ. The baptism that washes away our sins. The baptism that is for the forgiveness of sins.

I Cor 12:13, "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". This is exactly what happened in Acts 2. Peter was speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4). They were baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 41). They were added to the Church (Acts 2:41, 47). There is no doubt their baptism in Acts 2 was in water.

Let's look at Acts 8. Philip spoke the word of the Lord to the people of Samaria and those that believed were baptized (vs 12). Now, were they baptized in water, with the Holy Spirit, or both?

If the two are linked and inseperable, then your answer would have to be both. However, notice verses 15-16 , "who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here a clear distinction is made between baptism in water and everything else.

You're the one who believes baptism equates to salvation (I guess if you add on Jesus' name), abd this shows that it doesn't. Here, they did not even receive the Holy Spirit, and if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom.8:9)

Also notice that water baptism is the baptism refered to as done in "the name of the Lord Jesus". In other words, water baptism is by Jesus' authority.

Jesus had been given all authority (Matt 28:18). He commanded his apostles to go make disciples and baptize them and then teach them to go teach and baptize others and teach them to go teach and baptize others and so on, creating a cycle that never ends. This is baptism in water since neither you nor I could fulfill this commission if it were baptism with the HS, because that was a promise from Jesus and something He would do. The baptism in Matt 28:18-20 had human administrators. Therefore water baptism is the only possibility for the "one baptism" in Eph 4:5.

That's another line that you keep giving. If "baptism" is both by the Spirit accopmanied by water, then that passage does refer to the water ceremony that men administer. But also, by going and leading people to Christ, we are in a sense spiritually baptizing into the Body of Christ as well. It's the Spirit that does the baptizing, but just as with the water, we are the ones who are going and winning people and leading them into this process. Once again, they were both supposed to be concurrent, but got separated because baptism came to be associated with joinign a particular group, after going through its membership classes.
Still, with all of this, we see your "one baptism" line doesn;t prove anything, so it's time to retire it. Next is this "it must be something we administer" stuff.

 

[gekko]

did you even read my post? doesn't look like it.

Please show me one Scripture where it says that we have to prove we are Christians.

Please show me one Scripture where it says that you are saved by grace through faith, plus works. It doesn't exist.

there is no scripture for those. and im not saying there is am i. no. didnt think so.

we aren't here to prove to men that we are truly saved. we aren't here to prove anything at all really. BUT (and this is where you get lost...) BUT (notice the capslock!) BUT when one is truly saved - THEY WILL DESIRE TO HAVE THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. ---- that right there is proof to the unbelieving world ---- "ye shall know them by their fruits" i know that scripture is talking to believers about false prophets. it works both ways. it may seem i am using scripture to suit myself - NO IM NOT! i hate doing that.

if you do not have the fruits of the spirit as proof of a true repentance then the world will look at you and think you are one of its own and will not hate you.

we dont need to prove to anything, anybody here on earth whether we're saved or not. BUT... BUT when we have the fruits of the spirit - that is proof enough right there to an unbelieving world.

"the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today, is christians WHO ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT DENY THEM BY THEIR LIFESTYLE. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable" - dctalk

------------


I just read this verse. i think it may fit - not sure - please read in context and let me know if im misusing this verse.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but BE YE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, that ye may PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD, AND ACCEPTABLE, AND PERFECT, WILL OF GOD."
romans 12:1-2+

please read this post thoroughly again to fully get my point. thank you.