What is preventing our Savior’s return?

[agedman]

I am not a "Darby" dispensationalist, but use the dispensation thinking as an outline, a guide just as I use other tools.

What I find disturbs me concerning eschatology is that the wholesale rejection of a millennial reign and coupled with the dismissal of events that lead up to that reign as described by both the prophets and illustrated by the Revelation is just foolishness.

I can understand that thinking from folks prior to the 1900's because they really had no frame of reference for the events (beyond the plagues) that would ravage the world. And as my grandfather (born in 1884 and graduate of Southern Seminary) expressed, there was a certain allegiance and loyalty to the centuries of teaching.

But, frankly, the rejection of the clear statements of Scriptures given concerning a millennial reign should be considered as vile as one rejecting the crucifixion, the virgin birth, the resurrection...

It is a matter of taking the Scriptures as validly presenting historical facts in a manner that may seem impossible at the time, but in fact, happen.

For example:
What is more unbelievable that a dead person causing themselves to become alive again?
Or, what is more unbelievable than a maiden (virgin) conceiving a baby?
Or, what is more unbelievable than blood and death of one man can redeem others?
Or, what is more unbelievable than a fish swallowing a man and the man living for three days undigested to be barfed up and preach in a large city?
Or, even that from nothing God created everything?

Yet, on the BB we have folks who actually would discard one of the most clearly stated events of all Scriptures - the millennial reign.

Yet, these are the same folks who would stand firmly on the last judgement, the lake of fire, the new heaven and earth?

Such inconsistency is just intolerable for me to find tolerable.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am not a "Darby" dispensationalist, but use the dispensation thinking as an outline, a guide just as I use other tools.

What I find disturbs me concerning eschatology is that the wholesale rejection of a millennial reign and coupled with the dismissal of events that lead up to that reign as described by both the prophets and illustrated by the Revelation is just foolishness.

I can understand that thinking from folks prior to the 1900's because they really had no frame of reference for the events (beyond the plagues) that would ravage the world. And as my grandfather (born in 1884 and graduate of Southern Seminary) expressed, there was a certain allegiance and loyalty to the centuries of teaching.

But, frankly, the rejection of the clear statements of Scriptures given concerning a millennial reign should be considered as vile as one rejecting the crucifixion, the virgin birth, the resurrection...

It is a matter of taking the Scriptures as validly presenting historical facts in a manner that may seem impossible at the time, but in fact, happen.

For example:
What is more unbelievable that a dead person causing themselves to become alive again?
Or, what is more unbelievable than a maiden (virgin) conceiving a baby?
Or, what is more unbelievable than blood and death of one man can redeem others?
Or, what is more unbelievable than a fish swallowing a man and the man living for three days undigested to be barfed up and preach in a large city?
Or, even that from nothing God created everything?

Yet, on the BB we have folks who actually would discard one of the most clearly stated events of all Scriptures - the millennial reign.

Yet, these are the same folks who would stand firmly on the last judgement, the lake of fire, the new heaven and earth?

Such inconsistency is just intolerable for me to find tolerable.

I think that dispensationalism dates from the early 19th century. Luther believed that the Church would go through the Great Tribulation because he though that Pope Leo X was the Anti-Christ. Now it seems like that the Anti-Christ is Pope Francis, who supports UN goals on global warming and population control to the point that he downplays the importance of abortion and advocates birth control in Africa where he thinks that women are having just too many babies. Pope Francis, with the help of economist Jeffery Sachs, believes in open borders and multi-literalism, and is close friends with Bernie Sanders, whom he endorses for President.

 

[agedman]

I think that dispensationalism dates from the early 19th century. Luther believed that the Church would go through the Great Tribulation because he though that Pope Leo X was the Anti-Christ. Now it seems like that the Anti-Christ is Pope Francis, who supports UN goals on global warming and population control to the point that he downplays the importance of abortion and advocates birth control in Africa where he thinks that women are having just too many babies. Pope Francis, with the help of economist Jeffery Sachs, believes in open borders and multi-literalism, and is close friends with Bernie Sanders, whom he endorses for President.

I trust that which John stated pertaining many antiChrists. Anyone not redeemed is an antichrist. But there will be revealed that final one.

Dividing the Scriptures by “dispensations” has been done for centuries. Even Paul mentions such using dispensations as a way to indicate a certain span of time. that is how I also attend to the word.

“Darby“ scheme dates from the 1800’s and it may or may not need revision depending upon how it is presented.

As he and others near that beginning presented, I think more current scholarship is warranted just as I encourage those who seek original thinking of the reformers.

The scriptures must always be the primary source and everything conform to that presentation.

 

[agedman]

Though this thread isn't specifically about eschatology, rather it concerns what might be a hindrance or delay aspect, I would expect some posts upon the eschatology views.

Believers do not hope as the world does.

The believer's hope is coupled with assurance and that assurance is based upon the evidence of work that has already been accomplished not only in historical documentation but also by personal growth.

However, imo, the Second coming is preceded by a "great falling away" into apostasy, and as long as quality Bible teaching is primary in the assemblies, it would seem that also would be a hindrance to His return.

It is my opinion and not to recommend any believer diminish the claim and call of Scriptures, but just to keep us all aware that the longer an assembly continues, the more the Scriptures by parable indicate that compromise will take place - the enemy will plant many tares among the wheat. That such planting is allowed by the Father to prevent the believers from being complacent and also to lead others astray.

 

[MB]

Though this thread isn't specifically about eschatology, rather it concerns what might be a hindrance or delay aspect, I would expect some posts upon the eschatology views.

Believers do not hope as the world does.

The believer's hope is coupled with assurance and that assurance is based upon the evidence of work that has already been accomplished not only in historical documentation but also by personal growth.

However, imo, the Second coming is preceded by a "great falling away" into apostasy, and as long as quality Bible teaching is primary in the assemblies, it would seem that also would be a hindrance to His return.

It is my opinion and not to recommend any believer diminish the claim and call of Scriptures, but just to keep us all aware that the longer an assembly continues, the more the Scriptures by parable indicate that compromise will take place - the enemy will plant many tares among the wheat. That such planting is allowed by the Father to prevent the believers from being complacent and also to lead others astray.

The Anti Christ has to take over the world. Think abut this crisis we are going through right now. Do you think is could be used as a tool to take over the whole world?. There is one thing or prophecy that has not happened yet and that is the unveiling of the Anti Christ. Look at it when in our life time has the whole world been united in any effort. Never before. The Anti Christ is going to come up with a cure making everyone think he is just wonderful He will solve the problems for 3 and 1/2 years
MB

 

[MB]

aged man;
I believe your answer is the unveiling of the anti christt.
MB

 

[robycop3]

We futurists are often labeled "dispies" by preterists who are trying to support their false doctrines. That's wrong, as futurism & dispensationalism are different doctrines.

I an futurist because I believe Scripture literally as possible. And Scripture plainly says there's an evil man coming who will rule most of the world, along with a miracle-working false prophet. Jesus won't return til those two are in power, and the great trib occurs. Jesus Himself said He would return immediately after that great trib.

There's nothing we can do to change the timing of these events. They will occur when God's appointed time arrives. What we CAN do is lead as many as we can to Jesus.

 

[Covenanter]

We futurists are often labeled "dispies" by preterists who are trying to support their false doctrines. That's wrong, as futurism & dispensationalism are different doctrines.

I an futurist because I believe Scripture literally as possible. And Scripture plainly says there's an evil man coming who will rule most of the world, along with a miracle-working false prophet. Jesus won't return til those two are in power, and the great trib occurs. Jesus Himself said He would return immediately after that great trib.

There's nothing we can do to change the timing of these events. They will occur when God's appointed time arrives. What we CAN do is lead as many as we can to Jesus.

Please give scripture refs for those statements.

 

[robycop3]

Please give scripture refs for those statements.

2 Thess.2

Rev. 13

Daniel 9

 

[Covenanter]

We futurists are often labeled "dispies" by preterists who are trying to support their false doctrines. That's wrong, as futurism & dispensationalism are different doctrines.

I an futurist because I believe Scripture literally as possible. And Scripture plainly says there's an evil man coming who will rule most of the world, along with a miracle-working false prophet. Jesus won't return til those two are in power, and the great trib occurs. Jesus Himself said He would return immediately after that great trib.

There's nothing we can do to change the timing of these events. They will occur when God's appointed time arrives. What we CAN do is lead as many as we can to Jesus.

2 Thess.2

Rev. 13

Daniel 9

Thanks - as explained previously, I believe there are two "ends" in NT prophecy -

the end of the OC system which occurred in AD 70 with the destruction of the temple - as prophesied by Jesus in Mat. 24;
and the end of the Gospel age when Jesus returns - again Mat. 24, the passing of heaven & earth.​

2 THes. 1 details the return, & chapter 2 details the prophesied events that were beginning when Paul was writing - already at work - relating to the AD 70 destruction.

Daniel 9 details the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ which was finished at Calvary within the 70 weeks. All that remained after the 70 weeks was the AD 70 destruction.

Revelation was given for the blessing of its readers, & its fulfilment was at hand at the time of writing. I believe it should be understood as being related to the prophesies of Jesus & the other Apostles, so relates to the first century events, particularly AD 70. The prophesy is inspired, but we have no inspired record of the events the prophecy relates to. In particular, what is the extent of the Gk "GE" ? Land or Earth? The land of Israel which was overrun in AD 70? Or the planet earth?

I think Revelation is best understood as specifically concerned with the Jewish activities against both Church & Rome, & the AD 70 destruction, but also as a generalised warning about Christian living & persecution in the present Gospel age, aka the 1,000 years of Rev. 20. We know Jesus triumphed over Satan & commissioned the Gospel to be preached to all nation, according to God's word to Abraham & the prophets.

There is an expectation of increasing rebellion against Christ before his return at the end of the 1,000 years when the Gog-Magog war occurs. The return (fire from heaven) seams to forestall that rebellion.

However we interpret the details, your final paragraph applies, as does the advice at the end of the Olivet prophecy - watch & pray.

There's nothing we can do to change the timing of these events. They will occur when God's appointed time arrives. What we CAN do is lead as many as we can to Jesus.

 

[robycop3]

Thanks - as explained previously, I believe there are two "ends" in NT prophecy -

the end of the OC system which occurred in AD 70 with the destruction of the temple - as prophesied by Jesus in Mat. 24;
and the end of the Gospel age when Jesus returns - again Mat. 24, the passing of heaven & earth.​

2 THes. 1 details the return, & chapter 2 details the prophesied events that were beginning when Paul was writing - already at work - relating to the AD 70 destruction.

Daniel 9 details the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ which was finished at Calvary within the 70 weeks. All that remained after the 70 weeks was the AD 70 destruction.

Revelation was given for the blessing of its readers, & its fulfilment was at hand at the time of writing. I believe it should be understood as being related to the prophesies of Jesus & the other Apostles, so relates to the first century events, particularly AD 70. The prophesy is inspired, but we have no inspired record of the events the prophecy relates to. In particular, what is the extent of the Gk "GE" ? Land or Earth? The land of Israel which was overrun in AD 70? Or the planet earth?

I think Revelation is best understood as specifically concerned with the Jewish activities against both Church & Rome, & the AD 70 destruction, but also as a generalised warning about Christian living & persecution in the present Gospel age, aka the 1,000 years of Rev. 20. We know Jesus triumphed over Satan & commissioned the Gospel to be preached to all nation, according to God's word to Abraham & the prophets.

There is an expectation of increasing rebellion against Christ before his return at the end of the 1,000 years when the Gog-Magog war occurs. The return (fire from heaven) seams to forestall that rebellion.

However we interpret the details, your final paragraph applies, as does the advice at the end of the Olivet prophecy - watch & pray.

The prince of the people that shall destroy Jerusalem mentioned in Daniel is the antichrist. That destruction, by the Romans, was, of course, still future in Daniel's time. That prince caoldn't be Jesius, as He was not a Roman in His human side.

And the events of the rev, especially the great trib, will be WORLDWIDE. Here's the proof verse- Rev. 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Can't get much plainer than that !

The destruction of J & the temple were part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus had declared against the Jews of that generation. But a much-greater punishment fell on them a coupla generatiomns later, beginning 135-136 AD when the Romans, under hadrian, booted them from their land, and, for over 1800 years they were hated & persecuted wherever they went. But God still preserved them as a distinct people.

Their punishment culminated in the nazi holocaust, but after that, God began to lift their punishment, which doubtlessly came from their murder of Jesus & their continued rejection of Him as Messiah.

Most of the events of rev are still future, such as the coming to power of the antichrist, the Gog-Magog war, the great trib, & the marka the beast.

The next major prophetic event will either be the ascent of the antichrist to power, or the Jews' building of a new temple in Jerusalem. Right now, Jerusalem is still trod underfoot by gentiles. Even though it's now Israel's capital again, the Jews cannot do as they please in it because of those gentiles, & that's why they haven't yet built a new temple in it.

There are quite a few prophetic events to occur before Jesus will return. Remember, He said He will return immediate;ly after the great trib is ended.

 

[Covenanter]

The prince of the people that shall destroy Jerusalem mentioned in Daniel is the antichrist. That destruction, by the Romans, was, of course, still future in Daniel's time. That prince caoldn't be Jesius, as He was not a Roman in His human side.

The punctuation & understanding of Dan. 9:26-7 needs an interpretative input. Messiah is concerned with fulfilling the Covenant - in his life he fulfilled in every detail the Old Covenant, & by his death he established the New Covenant in his blood.

The prince was only concerned with the destruction. There is a clear difference between "Messiah the prince" in v. 25 & "the prince who is to come" in v. 26.

If we start week 70 at Jesus' baptism & anointing the week runs through his earthly ministry when he was publicly keeping the OC, to Calvary in the middle of the week, when OC sacrifices were effectively finished & the temple opened through the veil being torn, the NC established & proclaimed to the people at Pentecost. The end of the week sees the stoning of Stephen, the declaration that the Jewish leaders were "uncircumcised" & the Gospel opened to the Gentiles with Cornelius.

Separating week 69 & 70 is imposing a false interpretation on the text, NOT "believing Scripture literally as possible" as you claim.

And the events of the rev, especially the great trib, will be WORLDWIDE. Here's the proof verse- Rev. 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Can't get much plainer than that !

The word for "world - oikoumene" is commonly used for the Roman Empire, and "earth - ge" for the land of Israel. In the first century context it is plain.

The destruction of J & the temple were part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus had declared against the Jews of that generation. But a much-greater punishment fell on them a coupla generatiomns later, beginning 135-136 AD when the Romans, under hadrian, booted them from their land, and, for over 1800 years they were hated & persecuted wherever they went. But God still preserved them as a distinct people.

Their punishment culminated in the nazi holocaust, but after that, God began to lift their punishment, which doubtlessly came from their murder of Jesus & their continued rejection of Him as Messiah.

Yes but, the AD 70 destruction was explicitly prophesied by the Lord. What happened subsequently may be a matter of history, but not prophecy.

I cannot accept that a gracious & loving God would violate his declared everlasting love for his redeemed people for 1,000 generations, nor the statement in the commandments of his wrath only persisting 3-4 generations. Certainly not 50 generations.

Scripture records that the Jews DID accept Jesus as their Messiah - thousands received John's baptism & were urged to follow Jesus, and many more were baptised by Jesus disciples during his ministry, and many thousands received him at Pentecost & after. All Jerusalem (the world!) welcomed him into Jerusalem recognising him as the son of David and shouting "Hosanna!" The Jewish leaders dared not touch him in the temple for fear of the crowd. They organised their own crowd & had him tried secretly in the Sanhedrin & before Pilate & Herod - NOT in the temple. The mob that shouted "Crucify him" was not the crowd that welcomed him.

The fact that peole continued who continued to identify themselves as "Jews" were persecuted by the Romans & centuries later by the established churches should not be seen as the specific judgment of God. It's the judgment of evil men.

More to follow -

 

[Covenanter]

Most of the events of rev are still future, such as the coming to power of the antichrist, the Gog-Magog war, the great trib, & the marka the beast.

The next major prophetic event will either be the ascent of the antichrist to power, or the Jews' building of a new temple in Jerusalem. Right now, Jerusalem is still trod underfoot by gentiles. Even though it's now Israel's capital again, the Jews cannot do as they please in it because of those gentiles, & that's why they haven't yet built a new temple in it.

There are quite a few prophetic events to occur before Jesus will return. Remember, He said He will return immediate;ly after the great trib is ended.

John writes of the antichrist in his letters - the a-c doesn't get a direct mention in Revelation. He writes that there are "many antichrists" & as a result - "we know that it is the last hour." I know that many assert that John wrote his letters & Revelation after AD 70, but there is no inspired assertion. I don't think a-cs by John's description ceased after AD 70. They have continued in various forms throughout the Gospel age. Various opponents of the Gospel in the Gospels, Acts, the letters & Revelation deserve the general description "antichrist." John says "already in the world."

If the Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem, it will not be in fulfilment of any prophecy. Whether the European Jews now occupying Jerusalem are true descendants of Abraham is uncertain. As they are there in unbelief, in rejection of Messiah Jesus, they fit the Apostle John's description of A-C, also John the baptist's accusation concerning their parentage. The true temple is us, the redeemed people of God, built with living stones.

Note -

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

That blessedness is attained in Christ, in Christ alone. That status is ours as redeemed believers. The second death will have no power over us.

Gog & Magog are referred to in the apostasy after the millennium. Note that the millennium is populated by the souls of the martyrs & other faithful, dead believers in glory enjoying the blessing of "the dead who die in the Lord." Their resurrection is spiritual - they were born again & passed from death to life by faith. See John 5.

If we understand the millennium as the Gospel age, before which the world was in Satan's power, and during which Satan is restrained so that the Gospel goes to all mankind, then Rev. 20 teaches a final rebellion - Gog-Magog. Satan gathers them for battle - but the battle is not fought. Fire from heaven destroys them. See also 2 Thes. 1:6-10.

 

[robycop3]

John writes of the antichrist in his letters - the a-c doesn't get a direct mention in Revelation. He writes that there are "many antichrists" & as a result - "we know that it is the last hour." I know that many assert that John wrote his letters & Revelation after AD 70, but there is no inspired assertion. I don't think a-cs by John's description ceased after AD 70. They have continued in various forms throughout the Gospel age. Various opponents of the Gospel in the Gospels, Acts, the letters & Revelation deserve the general description "antichrist." John says "already in the world."

If the Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem, it will not be in fulfilment of any prophecy. Whether the European Jews now occupying Jerusalem are true descendants of Abraham is uncertain. As they are there in unbelief, in rejection of Messiah Jesus, they fit the Apostle John's description of A-C, also John the baptist's accusation concerning their parentage. The true temple is us, the redeemed people of God, built with living stones.

Note -

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

That blessedness is attained in Christ, in Christ alone. That status is ours as redeemed believers. The second death will have no power over us.

Gog & Magog are referred to in the apostasy after the millennium. Note that the millennium is populated by the souls of the martyrs & other faithful, dead believers in glory enjoying the blessing of "the dead who die in the Lord." Their resurrection is spiritual - they were born again & passed from death to life by faith. See John 5.

If we understand the millennium as the Gospel age, before which the world was in Satan's power, and during which Satan is restrained so that the Gospel goes to all mankind, then Rev. 20 teaches a final rebellion - Gog-Magog. Satan gathers them for battle - but the battle is not fought. Fire from heaven destroys them. See also 2 Thes. 1:6-10.

Anyone not FOR Christ is antichrist, but there'll be one particular antichrist who will be the most-evil person who will ever live, be personally indwelt by Satan, & will declare himself to be God, which is about as antichrist as one could be.

The Jews have a plan to build a new temple in J & have already gathered the materials & made the instruments. Recently, they consecrated an altar to be set up in it, & are breeding the animals to be used in temple rites. This temple will be where the 'beast' commits the "abomination of desolation". While it won't actually be a temple of GOD, as Jesus won't be worshipped in it, the world will believe it is. This temple is necessary for the AOD to be committed in.

And, in the coming "Gog-Magog war" against Israel, God didn'say He'd destroy those nations themselves, but that He'd destroy 5/6 of their army. So, apparently, the peoples that are descended from those old nations will still be here during the millenium, & will be the seat of the rebellion against Jesus' rule that Satan will foment upon his release from "the abyss".

 

[Covenanter]

Anyone not FOR Christ is antichrist, but there'll be one particular antichrist who will be the most-evil person who will ever live, be personally indwelt by Satan, & will declare himself to be God, which is about as antichrist as one could be.

No. That would make ALL unbelievers antichrist, including our children, Gospel contacts, ordinary people in general - sinners for whom Christ died.

Antichrists are militant against Christ & the Gospel.

How do you reply to Apostle John who said -

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[fn] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.​

The Jews have a plan to build a new temple in J & have already gathered the materials & made the instruments. Recently, they consecrated an altar to be set up in it, & are breeding the animals to be used in temple rites. This temple will be where the 'beast' commits the "abomination of desolation". While it won't actually be a temple of GOD, as Jesus won't be worshipped in it, the world will believe it is. This temple is necessary for the AOD to be committed in.

The temple of God was destroyed in AD 70. What the Jews are doing has no prophetic relevance.

And, in the coming "Gog-Magog war" against Israel, God didn'say He'd destroy those nations themselves, but that He'd destroy 5/6 of their army. So, apparently, the peoples that are descended from those old nations will still be here during the millenium, & will be the seat of the rebellion against Jesus' rule that Satan will foment upon his release from "the abyss".

They are! Israel is now of course the Church, initially comprising Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God. The G-M war will be against Christians wherever they are -

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.​

Hebrews 11 tells us that an earthly city is NOT the believers' focus. We are citizens of a heavenly city. We need to see these prophecies in spiritual terms.

The prophecies we read had their primary fulfilment in Christ, his incarnation & saving work, which he FINISHED at Calvary. The Jews who rejected him were given 35 years to repent, before the prophesied destruction.

Now we, living in the Gospel millennium, are awaiting the ultimate & perfect fulfilment when Jesus returns. Watch & pray.

 

[robycop3]

No. That would make ALL unbelievers antichrist, including our children, Gospel contacts, ordinary people in general - sinners for whom Christ died.

Antichrists are militant against Christ & the Gospel.

How do you reply to Apostle John who said -

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[fn] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.​

The temple of God was destroyed in AD 70. What the Jews are doing has no prophetic relevance.



They are! Israel is now of course the Church, initially comprising Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God. The G-M war will be against Christians wherever they are -

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.​

Hebrews 11 tells us that an earthly city is NOT the believers' focus. We are citizens of a heavenly city. We need to see these prophecies in spiritual terms.

The prophecies we read had their primary fulfilment in Christ, his incarnation & saving work, which he FINISHED at Calvary. The Jews who rejected him were given 35 years to repent, before the prophesied destruction.

Now we, living in the Gospel millennium, are awaiting the ultimate & perfect fulfilment when Jesus returns. Watch & pray.

Well, ACTUALLY, there are a lot of prophetic events yet to be fulfilled. And, for any who don't believe they'll be LITERALLY fulfilled, Just look at those prophecies that HAVE been literally fulfilled ! here's a recent example - Isaiah 19:17 And the land of Judah will become a terror to the Egyptians. Everyone to whom it is mentioned will fear because of the purpose that the Lord of hosts has purposed against them.

There are 80 million Egyptians, & 6 million Israelis, but the fact that israel defeated Egypt and her allies in the 1947-1949 war, the Suez war of 1956, the 6-day war of 1967, the "war of attrition", 1967-1970, & the Yom Kippur war of 1973 instilled an Egyptian fear of Israel that lasted for years. The peace agreement of 1979 came about from that fear. Only recently have Egypt & Israel begun making trade agreements. (Egypt became the first "Arab" nation to officially recognize Israel as a nation.)

There's simply no valid reason to believe the rest of these prophecies won't be LITERALLY fulfilled, including the rest of Isaiah 19. We see the first of that chapter was literally fulfilled, as Egypt went from being a rich, powerful nation to a very poor land, losing her independence to Persia in 343 BC, & was ruled by them, then the Greex, becoming briefly independent again under Cleopatra, then becoming subject to the Romans in 31 BC, then, ruled by the Byzantines, various Arab rulers, then, the Ottomans from 1517 til 1918 when the Ottomans were among the losers of WW1, with the british becoming the main rulers til 1922, when Britain granted sovereignty to Egypt again. During most of that time, and, into current times, Egypt has been in poverty.( But I believe God will bless Egypt again, when His time comes, as Isaiah 19 says.)

There are many other prophecies that'll be LITERALLY fulfilled, and the Jews WILL build a new temple in Jerusalem when God's time arrives for the "final countdown" before Jesus' return.

 

[Covenanter]

Well, ACTUALLY, there are a lot of prophetic events yet to be fulfilled. And, for any who don't believe they'll be LITERALLY fulfilled, Just look at those prophecies that HAVE been literally fulfilled ! here's a recent example - Isaiah 19:17 And the land of Judah will become a terror to the Egyptians. Everyone to whom it is mentioned will fear because of the purpose that the Lord of hosts has purposed against them.

There are 80 million Egyptians, & 6 million Israelis, but the fact that israel defeated Egypt and her allies in the 1947-1949 war, the Suez war of 1956, the 6-day war of 1967, the "war of attrition", 1967-1970, & the Yom Kippur war of 1973 instilled an Egyptian fear of Israel that lasted for years. The peace agreement of 1979 came about from that fear. Only recently have Egypt & Israel begun making trade agreements. (Egypt became the first "Arab" nation to officially recognize Israel as a nation.)

There's simply no valid reason to believe the rest of these prophecies won't be LITERALLY fulfilled, including the rest of Isaiah 19. We see the first of that chapter was literally fulfilled, as Egypt went from being a rich, powerful nation to a very poor land, losing her independence to Persia in 343 BC, & was ruled by them, then the Greex, becoming briefly independent again under Cleopatra, then becoming subject to the Romans in 31 BC, then, ruled by the Byzantines, various Arab rulers, then, the Ottomans from 1517 til 1918 when the Ottomans were among the losers of WW1, with the british becoming the main rulers til 1922, when Britain granted sovereignty to Egypt again. During most of that time, and, into current times, Egypt has been in poverty.( But I believe God will bless Egypt again, when His time comes, as Isaiah 19 says.)

There are many other prophecies that'll be LITERALLY fulfilled, and the Jews WILL build a new temple in Jerusalem when God's time arrives for the "final countdown" before Jesus' return.

Have you any support from the NT writings that such OC prophecies concerning a renewed military dominance of Israel as a nation? And a renewed Old Covenant?

Such thinking is material, carnal. We should be looking for the SPIRITUAL fulfilment of OT prophecy in Christ & the Gospel. The overriding prophecy concerning the nations is as given to the Patriarchs -

Gen. 22:15 Then the Angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Gal. 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[fn] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
....
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
​

There is no NT reason to think that specific OT prophecies concerning various nations applied beyond the OT era. Looks as if you have been reading newspapers & history books looking for such. People even quoted Isaiah 30 - "... the day of the great slaughter, When the towers fall....."

For those who think of Covid-19 as fulfilment of plague prophecy, there was the "black death" and the 1918 flue pandemic.

No. We have the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus - the Gospel of Salvation through repentance & faith that applies to individuals of all nations. Specific nations, including Israel, have no prophetic significance.

The only nation of prophetic significance is the Church which is the fulfilment of prophecy to Israel, & includes all of Abraham's seed by faith in the promised Seed, Christ.

Exo. 19:3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.​

 

[Covenanter]

Please reply to this specific point.

The destruction of J & the temple were part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus had declared against the Jews of that generation. But a much-greater punishment fell on them a coupla generatiomns later, beginning 135-136 AD when the Romans, under hadrian, booted them from their land, and, for over 1800 years they were hated & persecuted wherever they went. But God still preserved them as a distinct people.

Their punishment culminated in the nazi holocaust, but after that, God began to lift their punishment, which doubtlessly came from their murder of Jesus & their continued rejection of Him as Messiah.

I cannot accept that a gracious & loving God would violate his declared everlasting love for his redeemed people for 1,000 generations, nor the statement in the commandments of his wrath only persisting 3-4 generations. Certainly not 50 generations.

 

[robycop3]

Literal Israel and spiritual Israel are different bodies. God is not finished with literal Israel. He made specific prophecies about them, and He will keep them. Surely, the significance of Judah's having its own sovereign nation again, with Jerusalem once more being its capital, isn't lost on you ! "Replacement theology" is man-made & false.

Yes, most Jews are not Christians now, but ,of course, swalvation is open to Jew & gentile alike.

God has punished the Jews severely for murdering Jesus and for their continued rejection of Him as Messiah. Who's to tell God he couldn't punish them for over 1800 years if He so chose ?

Someone once asked the godless Napoleon if he believed in miracles, & he answered "Oui". When asked about a specific miracle, he instantly answered, "The Jews". Despite God's punishment, He preserved them as a distinct people.

And is it just coincidence that so many of our inventions were made by Jews, or that so many of our businessmen & government officials are Jews? There was a Jewish PM of Britain. (Disraeli) And is it mere coincidence that Israel is the "pound-for-pound" military champ of all time?

No, God hasn't abandoned the Jews, nor has He abandoned the rest of Israel. In time, the peoples who are of the other tribes of Israel will have their IDs made known to them & the world.

But meanwhile, salvation remains open to ALL !

 

[Covenanter]

God has punished the Jews severely for murdering Jesus and for their continued rejection of Him as Messiah. Who's to tell God he couldn't punish them for over 1800 years if He so chose ?

I must reject that answer because the LORD warned 3-4 generations - the maximum lifetime of those participating in the rejection, & who endorsed their parents' actions, rather than repenting.

Vast numbers of Jews did indeed welcome their Messiah, including those responding to John (baptist), Jesus during his ministry, those responding to the Apostolic Gospel which went out to "every nation under heaven", the dispersed Jews who were the first when Paul & others preached. That vast number were identified variously as "Christians," "the Way" & various local churches. They did not identify themselves as continuing Jews. They were indeed the "Holy Nation" the Nation

God is a God of justice & any failure to protect & preserve his chosen people AS HIS PEOPLE would be seen by unbelievers as a failure on his part, as Moses pointed out -

Exo. 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”
11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ”[fn] 14 So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Mat 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44 “And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.​

Those who persisted in their rejection of their Messiah perished as prophesied. THose who believed formed the continuing Holy Nation, bearing fruits for Messiah's glory.

IMO those Jews who continue to reject the Gospel are simply a people group holding to the religious elements of Judaism. As far as we are concerned the are a people potentially for whom Christ lived & died, welcomed by the Gospel, but not denied the Gospel nor kept in unbelief because of the actions of the Jews of Jesus' time.

As far as the church & the nations of the world, they should be free to worship as they please without fear or favour. They certainly should NOT be given Christian support in their conquest & oppression of Palestine & the people living there. THAT is ongoing persecution for which God will judge.