What is preventing our Savior’s return?

[MB]

Throughout my life, I have heard many sermons upon the return of Christ.

Within many, I heard statements such as, “the Lord could come back at any time...”

Yet, the longing for the “long expected” Redeemer has not rushed the Savior’s return. Human efforts to encourage and promote by work of sword or utopia have failed to bring the Lord.

I heard, in the last 30 years or more, a rising cry of mockery fulfilling the prophecy, “Where is the promise of his coming....”.

So what is preventing the return?

Hint: Revelation 6.

Anyone find another place of answer? There is.

I have wondered about the first seal being opened during this virus thing that's going on. If you think about the W.H.O. has confined the whole world with there restrictions. If this isn't a concurring I don't know what is.
If world war breaks out in the near future then we will know for sure.

I have always believed the return of our Lord would happen before the tribulation. No matter the Lord will protect us.
I've heard that same cry of when and the mockery. I don't think it'll be much longer. To night would be great. Don'r you think?
MB

 

[xlsdraw]

The Gog-Magog war happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

There are two Gog-Magog wars. One commonly called Ezekiel's war, which is only a select number of nations coming against Israel. The latter Gog-Magog war after the Thousand years reign of Christ is All the nations of the earth coming against Israel.

 

[JonC]

Daniel 9 concerns the 70 weeks prophecy, 70x7 years as distinct from the 70 years exile. The anointed one, Jesus, would finish his saving work within that period. 69 weeks continued until Jesus' baptist & anointing, so would conclude about 3 1/2 years after Calvary, about the time of the stoning of Stephen (when the Jewish leaders were declared "uncircumcised") & the welcoming of Cornelius without circumcision.

I don't see how "partial Preterism" which sees the tribulation & the temple destruction as the fulfilment of prophecy as "the last thing" apart from Jesus' return for resurrection & judgment & the NH&NE.

Covenanter,

My point (my only point) was to @Martin Marprelate that the Daniel cannot speak of Antiochus Epiphanes because Jesus spoke of the passage in Matthew as signifying something yet to come and Antiochus Epiphanes lived prior to Christ.

Beyond that statement I have no interest in discussing this with you. It is not a topic that interests me. I just saw a mistake and decided to offer a little correction.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My point (my only point) was to @Martin Marprelate that the Daniel cannot speak of Antiochus Epiphanes because Jesus spoke of the passage in Matthew as signifying something yet to come and Antiochus Epiphanes lived prior to Christ.

Ah! Thank you; I wondered what you meant. Needless to say, I disagree. The 'abomination' of Antiochus is a type of that of Titus, and points to another time when God's people will be surrounded (compare Luke 22:20 with Revelation 20:9), though the outcome will be very different.

 

[JonC]

Ah! Thank you; I wondered what you meant. Needless to say, I disagree. The 'abomination' of Antiochus is a type of that of Titus, and points to another time when God's people will be surrounded (compare Luke 22:20 with Revelation 20:9), though the outcome will be very different.

You're welcome.

I do disagree. I believe Matthew the applicable passage.

Matthew 24:14-16
"Therefore when you see the abomination OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

 

[timtofly]

There are two Gog-Magog wars. One commonly called Ezekiel's war, which is only a select number of nations coming against Israel. The latter Gog-Magog war after the Thousand years reign of Christ is All the nations of the earth coming against Israel.

The war after the 3.5 years of Satan's reign is Megiddo known as Armageddon. It takes place to end humanity that wears the mark of the beast. Gog-Magog is after the 1000 years, when Satan is released for one last chance to get it right.

 

[timtofly]

You're welcome.

I do disagree. I believe Matthew the applicable passage.

Matthew 24:14-16
"Therefore when you see the abomination OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

There is a great possibility that AE is brought back as the king with a mortal wound, and is the false prophet during the tribulation. He would have fulfilled all the prophecies that way.

 

[timtofly]

I have wondered about the first seal being opened during this virus thing that's going on. If you think about the W.H.O. has confined the whole world with there restrictions. If this isn't a concurring I don't know what is.
If world war breaks out in the near future then we will know for sure.

I have always believed the return of our Lord would happen before the tribulation. No matter the Lord will protect us.
I've heard that same cry of when and the mockery. I don't think it'll be much longer. To night would be great. Don'r you think?
MB

All the seals in Revelation 6 are because of the church. The church makes up those sealed by the Holy Spirit who actually accepted that seal and the Atonement of Christ who sealed up the Lamb's book of life since before the world was created. Those who accepted the seal instead of their own works of the flesh. The opening of the seals is the opening of the Lamb's book of life. And the church has to go through the seals for the churches lack of complete obedience. Seal 4 will be the worst. Then seals 5 and 6 is the Rapture of the church Paul promised to those both dead and alive in Christ. In the end the whole world will know the truth with God on the throne and the Lamb in view of everyone. Then the Trumpets will start and the judgment on the Jews will take place.

 

[MB]

All the seals in Revelation 6 are because of the church. The church makes up those sealed by the Holy Spirit who actually accepted that seal and the Atonement of Christ who sealed up the Lamb's book of life since before the world was created. Those who accepted the seal instead of their own works of the flesh. The opening of the seals is the opening of the Lamb's book of life. And the church has to go through the seals for the churches lack of complete obedience. Seal 4 will be the worst. Then seals 5 and 6 is the Rapture of the church Paul promised to those both dead and alive in Christ. In the end the whole world will know the truth with God on the throne and the Lamb in view of everyone. Then the Trumpets will start and the judgment on the Jews will take place.

Do you have any scriptures to support what you claim. The chapter in question does not say any of this.
MB

 

[timtofly]

Do you have any scriptures to support what you claim. The chapter in question does not say any of this.
MB

Revelation 5 the while chapter talks about the book. Revelation 13:8
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The whole point about the mark, is because Adam was punished with 6000 years, 6 days , and 6 hours/day of labor. That is the mystery of God’s plan.

When Jesus Christ died on the Cross, the Atonement was paid. The Lamb presented the offering on the alter, and all OT saints were placed under the alter. Then all the names of the whole world from day 6 to the last birth was written in the Lamb's book of life. Then the world was created.

When the Second Coming happens, it is the end of Adam's punishment. God no longer demands labor. Satan is allowed to have 3.5 years. Those who follow him, will proudly wear the mark of labor 666, even though God says humans no longer have to. In Revelation 14:9-13

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Along with Revelation 13:8 those who take the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those in the Lamb's book of life receive rest from their labor.

It is not just about spiritual salvation, the economy of Satan demands labor, but the mark has been there all along. Those who die in their sins for the last 1990 years have also proudly worn the mark because their works were more important than God's plan of salvation and the rest from labor. Matthew 11:27-30

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[MB]

Revelation 5 the while chapter talks about the book. Revelation 13:8
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The whole point about the mark, is because Adam was punished with 6000 years, 6 days , and 6 hours/day of labor. That is the mystery of God’s plan.

When Jesus Christ died on the Cross, the Atonement was paid. The Lamb presented the offering on the alter, and all OT saints were placed under the alter. Then all the names of the whole world from day 6 to the last birth was written in the Lamb's book of life. Then the world was created.

When the Second Coming happens, it is the end of Adam's punishment. God no longer demands labor. Satan is allowed to have 3.5 years. Those who follow him, will proudly wear the mark of labor 666, even though God says humans no longer have to. In Revelation 14:9-13

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Along with Revelation 13:8 those who take the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. Those in the Lamb's book of life receive rest from their labor.

It is not just about spiritual salvation, the economy of Satan demands labor, but the mark has been there all along. Those who die in their sins for the last 1990 years have also proudly worn the mark because their works were more important than God's plan of salvation and the rest from labor. Matthew 11:27-30

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It seems to me you have a wild imagination. Scripture is not of anyone's private interpretation. Maybe you should take scripture literally rather than allegorically.
MB

 

[timtofly]

It seems to me you have a wild imagination. Scripture is not of anyone's private interpretation. Maybe you should take scripture literally rather than allegorically.
MB

The fact that there is a literal punishment on all of Adam's descendants of labor, meaning that if we do not work, we literally starve to death, is allegorical?

 

[Covenanter]

It seems to me you have a wild imagination. Scripture is not of anyone's private interpretation. Maybe you should take scripture literally rather than allegorically.
MB

There are more than those 2 choices when we try to understand prophecy, especially Revelation -

1. Wild imagination may be the most popular method but is hardly edifying except to the interpreter, to the extent that reading & thinking about God's word will always draw us nearer to our Saviour God;

2. Taking it literally implies that interpretation is not needed, but because the Revelation is declared to be "signified" we do need to interpret in order to understand;

3. Allegorical interpretation needs a scheme of interpretation imposed on Scripture as characters & events as described mean something other than a simple reading portrays;

4. Understanding Scripture by Scripture means comparing the prophecies of the various Scripture writers to build up a composite understanding of "end times." That includes taking straightforward teaching as both literal in the immediate context, and understanding Scripture as giving practical & spiritual teaching for all readers - we do have ears to hear.
That readily applies to the 7 letters to the churches, as it does to the glorious NH&NE of Rev. 21. It's the bits in between that cause the problems.

5. Understanding Scripture as being the fulfilment of Old Covenant prophecies concerning Israel as a nation, as Scofield & others do.

6. Understanding Scripture as being the fulfilment of Old Covenant prophecies to refer to Jesus and his saving work applying to all nations according to God's "Seed" promise to the Patriarchs. Thus the OC prophecies have an immediate fulfilment in context & a spiritual fulfilment in Christ & his Church - the Church comprising all the redeemed people of God as one spiritual holy nation comprising Israel, Jews & Gentiles in Christ.

7. Taking Jesus' Olivet propheies as being the key to understanding Revelation & other prophecies in the Epistles.

8. Understanding that God is working towards a glorious fulfilment of all prophecy according to his own understanding, not ours. We are called to live godly New Covenant lives as we serve him now & look for Jesus return in glory.
​

I prefer a combination of 4, 6, 7 & 8.

​

 

[MB]

The fact that there is a literal punishment on all of Adam's descendants of labor, meaning that if we do not work, we literally starve to death, is allegorical?

You cannot show even one scripture that says so.
MB

 

[timtofly]

You cannot show even one scripture that says so.
MB

I did, Matthew 11:27-30.

I should not have to explain how today's economy works. The US is at a crossroads between capitalism and socialism. Perhaps the two ideologies can work hand in hand, or not. The point is that currency is the point between labor and the goods one needs to live and thrive.

Those without a job, do not just get food, they still have to give up some work, and mostly pride, which for some may burn more calories than exercise.

The point is that the whole world was changed at the fall. Even the sons of God had to start figuring out labor and why the earth did not "just give up its bounty" without manual labor. Economy and the division of labor became a reality.

After the Flood and a "perfect" world was destroyed men had to figure out their own tools and how labor would be realized. Even Noah figured out how alcohol worked, before his offspring figured out labor. If you reject The Flood, then you reject Peter in 2 Peter 2:5

5 And he did not spare the ancient world; on the contrary, he preserved Noach, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, and brought the Flood upon a world of ungodly people.

The physical punishment was work. Genesis 3:17-19

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree about which I gave you the order, ‘You are not to eat from it,’ the ground is cursed on your account; you will work hard to eat from it as long as you live.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat field plants.
19 You will eat bread by the sweat of your forehead till you return to the ground — for you were taken out of it: you are dust, and you will return to dust.”

Revelation 10:5-7 brings to an end this 6000 year long punishment on Adam called work.

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

Labor and the removal of labor was God’s plan from the time of Creation, 7000 years ago. When Christ came 2000 years ago, the spiritual part of the plan was revealed, and removed. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Death no longer had any grip on reality. The Second Coming will remove the physical punishment of 6000 years of work.

The whole world groans under this burden of work, waiting patiently for the day it will be over.
Romans 8:19-23

19 The creation waits eagerly for the sons of God to be revealed;
20 for the creation was made subject to frustration — not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it. But it was given a reliable hope
21 that it too would be set free from its bondage to decay and would enjoy the freedom accompanying the glory that God’s children will have.
22 We know that until now, the whole creation has been groaning as with the pains of childbirth;
23 and not only it, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we continue waiting eagerly to be made sons — that is, to have our whole bodies redeemed and set free.

 

[MB]

I did, Matthew 11:27-30.

I should not have to explain how today's economy works. The US is at a crossroads between capitalism and socialism. Perhaps the two ideologies can work hand in hand, or not. The point is that currency is the point between labor and the goods one needs to live and thrive.

Those without a job, do not just get food, they still have to give up some work, and mostly pride, which for some may burn more calories than exercise.

I disagree people on welfare do not work. They get food stamps and free housing' The homeless stand on corners with a sign saying there hungry and they get fed. I've even offered them a Job and they won't take it. They camp out by the river and pollute it with there feces. You need to wake up and see the world for what it really is.. The scriptures you have shown do not support your theories

The point is that the whole world was changed at the fall. Even the sons of God had to start figuring out labor and why the earth did not "just give up its bounty" without manual labor. Economy and the division of labor became a reality.

What fall was that please show scripture of this fall? Tell us what they fell from? If you're speaking of Adam you are wrong Adam did not fall he was never in heaven nor did he have eternal life. Adam had the same propensity to sin as the rest of us or he would not have sinned. The only punishment Adam got was the ground was cursed and he got kicked out of the Garden . He did not loose communication with God neither did any of his sons. Neither did we.

After the Flood and a "perfect" world was destroyed men had to figure out their own tools and how labor would be realized. Even Noah figured out how alcohol worked, before his offspring figured out labor. If you reject The Flood, then you reject Peter in 2 Peter 2:5

I do not reject the flood or any provable fact in the Bible. How ever you take a little of scripture and add a lot of things that clearly aren't in the Bible as your explanation. I make no assumptations of God's word and you clearly do

5 And he did not spare the ancient world; on the contrary, he preserved Noach, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, and brought the Flood upon a world of ungodly people.

The physical punishment was work. Genesis 3:17-19

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree about which I gave you the order, ‘You are not to eat from it,’ the ground is cursed on your account; you will work hard to eat from it as long as you live.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat field plants.
19 You will eat bread by the sweat of your forehead till you return to the ground — for you were taken out of it: you are dust, and you will return to dust.”

Revelation 10:5-7 brings to an end this 6000 year long punishment on Adam called work.

The under above under lined is your addition. Work is a necessity not a punishment. Adam tended the Garden before he sinned

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

Labor and the removal of labor was God’s plan from the time of Creation, 7000 years ago. When Christ came 2000 years ago, the spiritual part of the plan was revealed, and removed. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Death no longer had any grip on reality. The Second Coming will remove the physical punishment of 6000 years of work.

The whole world groans under this burden of work, waiting patiently for the day it will be over.
Romans 8:19-23

19 The creation waits eagerly for the sons of God to be revealed;
20 for the creation was made subject to frustration — not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it. But it was given a reliable hope
21 that it too would be set free from its bondage to decay and would enjoy the freedom accompanying the glory that God’s children will have.
22 We know that until now, the whole creation has been groaning as with the pains of childbirth;
23 and not only it, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we continue waiting eagerly to be made sons — that is, to have our whole bodies redeemed and set free.

In my opinion you seem to add a lot to scripture.
MB

 

[timtofly]

I disagree people on welfare do not work. They get food stamps and free housing' The homeless stand on corners with a sign saying there hungry and they get fed. I've even offered them a Job and they won't take it. They camp out by the river and pollute it with there feces. You need to wake up and see the world for what it really is.. The scriptures you have shown do not support your theories


What fall was that please show scripture of this fall? Tell us what they fell from? If you're speaking of Adam you are wrong Adam did not fall he was never in heaven nor did he have eternal life. Adam had the same propensity to sin as the rest of us or he would not have sinned. The only punishment Adam got was the ground was cursed and he got kicked out of the Garden . He did not loose communication with God neither did any of his sons. Neither did we.

I do not reject the flood or any provable fact in the Bible. How ever you take a little of scripture and add a lot of things that clearly aren't in the Bible as your explanation. I make no assumptations of God's word and you clearly do

The under above under lined is your addition. Work is a necessity not a punishment. Adam tended the Garden before he sinned


In my opinion you seem to add a lot to scripture.
MB

You are free to object it has been 6000 years. Since you did not state your own time frame, there is no proof, I am wrong nor adding a single thing.

I never said it was wrong for humans to not force humans to work. Should we try to force every one not to work and see how that turns out?

 

[MB]

You are free to object it has been 6000 years. Since you did not state your own time frame, there is no proof, I am wrong nor adding a single thing.

I never said it was wrong for humans to not force humans to work. Should we try to force every one not to work and see how that turns out?

Its not a matter of telling each other what to believe. what you believe just seems odd to me I've never heard of these theories before.

This thing about work for me is not punishment. They won't let me work any more because they say I'm to old. I wish I could work I always enjoyed my work no matter what . Work for me gave me a sense of being needed, and it was always a pleasure to serve others. I look at it as a blessing really.
MB

 

[timtofly]

Its not a matter of telling each other what to believe. what you believe just seems odd to me I've never heard of these theories before.

This thing about work for me is not punishment. They won't let me work any more because they say I'm to old. I wish I could work I always enjoyed my work no matter what . Work for me gave me a sense of being needed, and it was always a pleasure to serve others. I look at it as a blessing really.
MB

That is why I quoted Matthew. That is why the curse is hidden from view. God did not give us a punishment that was hard. God gives work as an easy task to those who trust him. That is why Job was persecuted by Satan. Satan told God that Job was only righteous, because God blessed him. God blessed Job, because he was righteous and served God. Satan is the one who wants to make a big deal out of work. And all those people who think they can please God with their own works. There is a difference. God said if Cain brought his offering with the right attitude there would not be an issue, but Abel was favored because God had given Abel the task over the animals, and that was God’s plan of a sacrifice. We will never know if Cain would have changed his heart, and still offered his offering in accordance with God.

It is in one's heart and attitude where wickedness starts, no matter how pleasing we are in God’s view. That is what creation is groaning about. Only humans have been the stubborn ones not conforming to the will and plan of God, no matter what Satan demands of us.