How can a non regenerated sinner turn away from sin?
How can a non regenerated sinner have faith?
The answer to both questions is they can't. Regeneration precedes both faith and repentance. Both are gifts, and both are necessary.
Logically, in the order of salvation, regeneration comes first followed by faith and repentance. However in time, all three are instantaneous, thus faith and repentance are necessary for salvation. But that is another discussion.
a sinner must be regenerated before they can turn away from sin, Repentance is change of mind about self and looking to Jesus. a person will never look to Jesus unless they change their mind (Repent) about self.
Agreed.
Could you show from scripture where Repentance is used in the way of meaning to turn from sin AND that this type of repentance is necessary for salvation BOTH in the SAME passage of scripture, You might be able to convince me if you can do this.
Because whenever you see the word repent used you have to look at the context of how it is being used to figure out what the the person must repent about, I am yet to see from scripture alone where the word repent is used as a requirement for salvation and be clearly shown that it is all sin that must be repented of.
First let's clarify. When I say repent of sin. I am not saying that a person must cease from all sin in order to be saved. That would indeed be works salvation. Repentance is a Spirit directed change of mind that affects your life, specifically how you react to sin. You quoted David Cloud previously so let me quote him as well (emphasis in original):
Biblical repentance as preached by John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the apostles, is A CHANGE OF MIND TOWARD GOD AND SIN THAT RESULTS IN A CHANGE OF LIFE. IT IS A SPIRIT-WROUGHT CHANGE OF MIND THAT LEADS TO A CHANGE OF LIFE. It is not a change of life. That would be a works salvation. It is a radical, Spirit-wrought change of mind toward sin and God, such a dramatic change of mind that it changes one’s actions.
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/biblical_repentance.html
Now to scripture, we will limit ourselves to a handful of texts from the New Testament since there really is just so much:
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. - Mat 3:7-10 NASB
I know Winman tried to explain these verses away by saying what must be repented of is the attitude of ethnic superiority mentioned in verse 9, but that really makes mince meat of what the prophet is saying. That is partly true of course, they did need to repent of their racism, however that is something that is
combined with the general call to repent. Look at the language, "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father.'" John is anticipating their excuses of why they think they don't need to repent,
not fully expounding on what they must repent of.
They hear John's call to repentance, which is clearly salvific, John says they must "flee from the wrath to come," and therefore (because they are to flee the wrath to come) they must bear fruit keeping with or consistent with repentance. In other words this repentance is not only in the mind, it must be worked out in the persons life and this is part of fleeing the wrath of God. The Pharisees and Sadducees will argue that as Jews they do not need to repent, repentance is for Gentiles to them. However John heads that off before they even speak, essentially telling them "Don't say you, as Jews, are good to go and don't need to repent! Your works say otherwise!" And then John uses the picture of the axe chopping down trees. You can't miss the parallel between verse 8 "
bear fruit keeping with repentance" and verse 10 "every tree that does not
bear good fruit is cut down..."
and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." - Mar 1:15 NASB
Jesus has begun his public ministry, after the arrest of John, and is now calling people to repentance. This repentance is clearly tied to
but separate from belief itself in the gospel. And don't miss the context, Mark sets this up immediately follows John's preaching of repentance and right before Jesus calls his disciples. The repentance preached by Jesus is assumed to be the same as John's, the context gives no indication that it is different. The repentance John preached dealt with the confession of and forgiveness of sin (Mar 1:5 and 1:4 respectively).
When Jesus calls the disciples he says to them "Follow me" and they leave everything they have a follow Christ. This following Jesus is clearly seen as the correct response to the call of repent and believe. The call has not changed, we are still to follow Jesus and we abandon all (sometimes literally sacrificing everything) in repentance and faith. Salvation (justification and sanctification, what the gospels simply call following Jesus) is clearly seen as repentance and belief/faith in the gospel.
"You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity." - Act 8:21-23 NASB
This text is fascinating in so many ways. The context is this; A man named Simon who was a magician (sorcerer, not party entertainer) and had captivated the people of Samaria and these people where hailing him as an almost messianic figure. Then Philip comes through preaching the gospel, people are converted and stop following this guy, then Simon himself believes and is even baptized. Long story short, he sees the apostles perform miracles and tries to buy the Holy Spirit from them! Peter is indignant and says the above to him. First he tells him to "repent of this wickedness" in other words "repent of your sin!" Not only that but Peter tells him to seek forgiveness because he perceives that Simon is not genuinely saved! "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity." Peter sees the person, who remember has made a profession and been baptized, as being an unregenerate, sin-bound, lost person in need of forgiveness. This passage clearly shows that one can believe, be baptized and even go to church (follow the apostles here, 8:13) but it is still all in vain if there is no repentance. This man never repented to begin with, and there is no evidence he repented when rebuked by Peter. Repentance is critically important to salvation.
"So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. - Act 26:19-20 NASB
Paul is before King Agrippa giving his testimony. He recounts the vision of Christ he had and tells Agrippa what he did in response. He went to the Gentiles and preached "that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." Notice that the Gentiles are to "repent
and turn to God." The repentance here is a turning
from something, paired with a turning
to God. Two distinct, yet related actions. What is this they are to repent of? The text doesn't say specifically so the general repent of rebellion against God (sin) is applicable, though most likely he has in mind repentance of idolatry, which is the cardinal sin of the Gentiles.
Whatever the case, this repentance is clearly for salvation as the language in verse 20, "repent and turn to God," mirrors the reported words of Jesus in verse 18 where the Lord says that Paul must preach so that the people "
turn from darkness to light and
from the dominion of Satan to God." Why must people turn, i.e., repent? "That they may receive forgiveness of sins." This repentance is also evidenced in "deeds appropriate to repentance" again showing that biblical repentance is not
only in the mind, but is worked out in the life.
One thing I have noticed is that Winman is appealing to scripture with Exegesis.
You are attempting to argue from reason and logic.
Winman
is appealing to scripture, though I question his exegesis. You apparently missed or forgot my first post in this thread back on page one, I used scripture clearly.
Also reason and logic are not our enemies. Our faith does not call us to check our brains at the door. Everything is to be brought into obedience to the Word of God, but if God is a logical, intelligent being as scripture says, then logic and reason must be consistent with not contrary to the Bible.
