What is Salvation by Faith?

[Hope of Glory]

Since the Bible doesn't mince words about it, yes. Some will stand at the Judgment Seat justified and others will not.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: Since the Bible doesn't mince words about it, yes. Some will stand at the Judgment Seat justified and others will not.

HP: They will either be placed on His left hand or his right, separated as sheep and goats, sent away into everlasting torment or remain with Him forever.

Not justified? Not saved. You cannot separate justification from salvation. They are part and parcel of the same work.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, now you're claiming that unsaved people will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: So, now you're claiming that unsaved people will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

HP: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

You place whatever name you so desire on “THE” judgment. Whatever you name it, it will be the judgment every man will attend, and every man will be judged according to the deeds done in the flesh, whether good or bad. The saved and the wicked will all be there.
Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[J. Jump]

Eternal salvation or eternal damnation is not determined after death, but in this life. You are either saved or not in this life. After death it is too late. So the judgment that comes after death is not a judgment in regard to whether one is saved or not, because that judgment took place during the person's lifetime.

The judgment after death is a judgment of works. Again this shows us that eternal salvation is not in view, because that is not based upon our works.

The church's traditional teachings on the judgments to come have really muddied the water unfortunately

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: The church's traditional teachings on the judgments to come have really muddied the water unfortunately

HP: In light of the plain teachings of the Word of God, it is the notions of men, such as you express here, that are clouding the waters of truth.

We have been judged in a sense at salvation, but there is a judgment for all men yet to come, just as Scripture states. You and I will both be there along with every other man that lived. The wise will listen and prepare.

 

[Hope of Glory]

We have been judged in a sense at salvation, but there is a judgment for all men yet to come, just as Scripture states. You and I will both be there along with every other man that lived. The wise will listen and prepare.

Well, you are right up to this point.

But, saved people and only saved people will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The rest will appear at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Both are judgments of works in this life.

Whether or not you are saved is determined in this life.

 

[J. Jump]

but there is a judgment for all men yet to come, just as Scripture states.

That's absolutely right, but what is the judgment in regard to that awaits both the saved and the unsaved? It's a judgment based on works which has nothing to do with eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is decided before a person dies. The salvation that awaits us is not a judgment as to who is saved and who isn't, because that has already been judged.

But you are absolutely correct and I stated this in my previous thread that we will be judged in the future, but it's a judgment based on works or lack there of, so eternal salvation is not in view.

So my statement stands correct in that church tradition has really clouded the waters on this subject unfortunately.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: But, saved people and only saved people will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
The rest will appear at the Great White Throne Judgment.

HP: Can you establish that by the plain teachings of the Word of God?

 

[BobRyan]

HP: They will either be placed on His left hand or his right, separated as sheep and goats, sent away into everlasting torment or remain with Him forever.

Not justified? Not saved. You cannot separate justification from salvation. They are part and parcel of the same work.

True enough. If you ARE justified you ARE saved.

Rom 5:1 "Having been justified by faith WE HAVE peace with God".

But that does not mean you can not then be lost.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[EdSutton]

salvation by faith = salvation that is not biblical

salvation by grace through faith = biblican salvation

I seem to recall somewhere where Jesus told one or maybe two individuals, "Thy (Your) faith has saved you." Did I misread that??

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

That depends on whether or not we mean faith as the Bible means it or `believe' as in intellectual assent.

Some people believe that Jesus lived or maybe still lives, but do not do much about it nor see a need to. Such "believe" will not do it.

Now, biblical faith, that is a different matter. That is a faith that believes enough to actually want to do something with it. Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, |but only | the kind of faith that works through love” (NASB|ESV|ICB).

James 2:14-26 builds on this. Although we are saved by faith before works are completed per Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 4:5, the faith must be the kind that would truly motivate us to act.

That being said, we can know if we are saved as 1 John 2:3 says: "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments" (NASB). If our belief in the Gospel is enough to motivate us to obey, we know that we are saved.

Uh- where does the Bible speak of, refer to, give an example of, or even know of any such thing as " `believe' as in intellectual assent"? Did I miss the verse(s)?

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

"You are saved by grace through faith - it is the gift of God". Salvation by faith is salvation by works - he who has it, has not Christ.

Hanh??????

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: but there is a judgment for all men yet to come, just as Scripture states.

JJ: That's absolutely right, but what is the judgment in regard to that awaits both the saved and the unsaved? It's a judgment based on works which has nothing to do with eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is decided before a person dies. The salvation that awaits us is not a judgment as to who is saved and who isn't, because that has already been judged.

But you are absolutely correct and I stated this in my previous thread that we will be judged in the future, but it's a judgment based on works or lack there of, so eternal salvation is not in view.

HP: You fail to recognize some clear points concerning salvation presented in Scripture. First, in this present life we have received a ‘pardon’ from sin, not a license to sin a or a license to escape the penalty of future acts of sin and disobedience.

A pardon is the concept that Scripture repeatedly presents as a proper understanding of salvation. A pardon in no way sets aside the law in regard to any future acts of disobedience, nor does it make such future acts of disobedience impossible, nor does it negate the penalty for any future acts of disobedience, nor does it hold out any hope necessarily that such future acts will ‘of necessity’ be pardoned in the future. A pardon simply sets aside the penalty of the law for violations that are past, placing the individual in right standing before the law. Such a pardon effects only violations that have been addressed at the time of the pardon, i.e. past acts of disobedience. It is dangerous presumption for anyone to assume that all future acts of disobedience will in fact not rightfully incur the prescribed penalty of the law apart from renewed repentance and faith. Again a pardon sets aside the penalty of the law within a specific and prescribed parameter alone.

There is not a shred of Scriptural evidence that any future acts of disobedience automatically incur the same pardon from punishment that the original pardon covered, i.e., acts of sins that are past. Such a notion is sheer presumption, and is believed at the risk of jeopardizing ones final standing before the Lord.

Secondly, you wrongfully assume that the knowledge you now posses in this present world is that of absolute knowledge as opposed to knowledge held by faith. No man in this present world has absolute knowledge of his final standing before the Lord. If he did, he would have to be omniscient as God alone is. God has not so designed our present assurance to be held apart from the need and testament of continued obedience.

It is folly to try and support ones final hopes, if that hope is based without the assurance of present obedience as testified to our conscience via our daily formed intents and subsequent actions. Any faith that attempts to bypass the need for self examination of their actions in this present world to establish the validity of it, will be found in the end likened to the man that tries to enter the sheepfold by climbing over the wall instead of entering in by the door, or a man that tries to enter the marriage feast without having on a wedding garment.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead Faith will not save.


Scripture is clear that in this world all assurance is by faith, and faith is subject to the possibility of deception. We are commanded to examine ourselves as professing believers, to see if in fact we are of the faith. This is not a one time act of examination, but it is to be a continuous examination until we pass from this life into the next. We are to make our calling and election sure. These commands and many others of similar kind would be absolutely meaningless if we were to believe that we possessed absolute knowledge of our final standing before the Lord in this life.

Our faith will not turn to absolute knowledge until we stand before the Lord in ‘final’ judgment. Our faith will not be turned to sight until we hear those words pronounced, ‘Thou good and faithful servant” at the judgment of God, and be allowed to move to His right into everlasting and eternal reward. It will be at this final judgment that we will, for the first time be able to say, from this state I will forever remain, for I see now through the eyes of absolute knowledge my standing before God. Our faith will disappear as the morning fog, and will in an instant be turned to absolute sight and knowledge.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[J. Jump]

You fail to recognize some clear points concerning salvation presented in Scripture. First, in this present life we have received a ‘pardon’ from sin, not a license to sin a or a license to escape the penalty of future acts of sin and disobedience.

I haven't missed that, that's my point!

A pardon is the concept that Scripture repeatedly presents as a proper understanding of salvation.

A pardon for your past actions. You must continue to deal with present and future mess ups. We see this in I John 1:9. We also see it in the footwashing ceremony. And the OT type shows us by the cleansing the priests went through at the laver.

There is not a shred of Scriptural evidence that any future acts of disobedience automatically incur the same pardon from punishment that the original pardon covered, i.e., acts of sins that are past. Such a notion is sheer presumption, and is believed at the risk of jeopardizing ones final standing before the Lord.

Again I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying or I didn't communicate my point very clearly. You are making my point. What was pardoned at the time of believing in Christ is done, but what happens five minutes after that must be dealt with according to I John 1:9 because of the blood of Christ that now sits on the mercy seat and Him acting as our High Priest.

Secondly, you wrongfully assume that the knowledge you now posses in this present world is that of absolute knowledge as opposed to knowledge held by faith.

Again it's God's Words, so I don't know how more absolute something can get more than the Creator Himself telling you. If you want to continue to walk around in a fog of doubt be my guess, but the Bible is Absolute Truth and if I die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to teach me He will guide me into all Truth.

It is folly to try and support ones final hopes, if that hope is based without the assurance of present obedience as testified to our conscience via our daily formed intents and subsequent actions. Any faith that attempts to bypass the need for self examination of their actions in this present world to establish the validity of it, will be found in the end likened to the man that tries to enter the sheepfold by climbing over the wall instead of entering in by the door, or a man that tries to enter the marriage feast without having on a wedding garment.

I think I have found the source of confusion. You are still trying to tie everything into eternal salvation. You are speaking of eternal salvation as a linear event that is not settled until the moment you die and that's not the way the Bible describes eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is a one-time event, not a linear process.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead Faith will not save.

Amen! Except James is not talking about the same salvation you are. James is talking about a salvation that is only available to an eternally saved person. An unsaved person can not even begin the journey of this salvation until they have trusted Jesus as Savior.

Scripture is clear that in this world all assurance is by faith,

Not at all. Assurance is trusting that God said it and so it is. You speak of faith in that you believe something and hope in the end that it is true, but that's not the way the Bible presents matters.

 

[Atonement]

Salvation comes from the Blood of Christ and the Blood alone. Faith is that we believe on His Blood to redeem us from our sins.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hanh??????

Ed

Yes!
I am not saved by believing; my faith is not what saves me; salvation is not by faith --- the same thing. My believing, my faith, is my doing --although being made possible and real by God; my works even if faith or believing, cannot and will not save -- not me or anyone else.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

... I forgot to clinch the matter: If I depended on my works although even my believing or my faith for salvation, I must know for sure I have not Christ as my Saviour, but myself.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There is a judgement that saves -- the elect contained in Jesus Christ are saved "in Him" --- that is their 'salvation'.
Then there is the judgement of the last day -- the judgement that will burn up the damned in hell -- the saved will see it with their own eyes, but will be safe in Jesus Christ. They will be the sheep; the damned will be the goats; the first will enter into the glory of Christ; the latter into everlasting shame.
We should know of which judgement we talk : of the one that saved the lost; or of the one that will burn up the lost remaining.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

JJump:
"Eternal salvation is a one-time event, not a linear process."

Amen! And that 'one-time event' is not the moment of one's conversion or regeneration, but the atonement finished by Jesus Christ and in Him, "once for all" for all those who are saved.