What is sin nature?

[Darren]

Well here I go again. I'd like to question a major doctrine of the Baptist church.




Since it's becoming clear to me, Baptist means adhereing to certain doctrines AS WELL as a plain interpretation of scripture, I've decided. I'm not longer a Baptist. (How do I change that on my profile?) Not sure why I said I was, and my apologies, I probably joined this board when my converson to Independant christian was still new to me. That being said, I will no longer post in the Baptist section. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be dishonest, and I've become convicted about it, since it does seem dishonest to say I'm Baptist when I do NOT profess most of the Baptist doctrines.

I'm sorry.





There, now that that's out of the way, I'd like to ask this question, what is sin nature? Other denominations feel free to weigh in (I'd like more than one opinion).

I believe we have two natures. One good, one evil. Our lives are spent with those two in constant war.

If I were of a far eastern, at this point, I would say, balance is the goal... then probably sit in a funny position and start a wierd chant attempting to cut myself off from the real world. No, balance is not the goal. Victory is the goal. Evil needs nothing more from the good to step aside, then it prevails. Just wanted to clarify, I'm not spouting yin and yang garbage.

The two natures give rise to our chioce. With no desire for evil, I cannot choose evil. If I can't chose not God, isn't it less valuable to choose Him, than if I had a choice? This is why the love of a child, wife or friend is more valuable than a dog's. After all, a dog has no real choice, he's just feeding from his nature of the pack. A dog's love isn't real, not in the sense of human love. They really can't NOT behave the way they do. But humans are different... nay, I say we are superior. Our intelligence and ability to use judgement is why God made us the rulers of this earth (yes, we are stewards of this planet, and as such, nature is subject to us, stick that in your pipe and smoke it eviornmentalists:thumbs.

Also, I would like to point out, when the Bible was written, "nature" or terms to that effect in other languages, often meant a set of learned behaviors, not unwilling evolved traits... after all, evolution wasn't dreamed up until the late eighteen hundreds.

 

[Samuel Owen]

S. I. N. (Self Indulgent Nature). The old mans (flesh) desire to please himself, in the things of this world. And not the things of God. Whereas our new nature (spirit) delights in pleasing God, and abhors sinful things.

Most today try to walk a thin line (double minded), between the two. That is why you see so much failure, in the body of Christ today.

I speak to my own shame.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Well here I go again. I'd like to question a major doctrine of the Baptist church.

Since it's becoming clear to me, Baptist means adhereing to certain doctrines AS WELL as a plain interpretation of scripture, I've decided. I'm not longer a Baptist. (How do I change that on my profile?) Not sure why I said I was, and my apologies, I probably joined this board when my converson to Independant christian was still new to me. That being said, I will no longer post in the Baptist section. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be dishonest, and I've become convicted about it, since it does seem dishonest to say I'm Baptist when I do NOT profess most of the Baptist doctrines.

Perhaps you are a traditional Baptist and not a modern one. In fact many who call themselves Baptist really are not Baptist and have little or no idea of what Baptist have traditionally believed and taught.

 

[nunatak]

I think man is fallen, dead in trespasses and sin, and as such he is unable to achieve any righteousness on his own accord, or choice. Which is why we need a saviour. And we need the gracious gift that is reckoned to us upon putting our faith in Christ alone; and that gift is righteousness.

 

[bound]

Perhaps you are a traditional Baptist and not a modern one. In fact many who call themselves Baptist really are not Baptist and have little or no idea of what Baptist have traditionally believed and taught.

Could you share your views with us on the topic?

Thanks and God Bless.

 

[Andre]

I believe that our sin nature needs to be understood in what amounts to a different paradigm than is generally used in the church. I suggest that many people apply a "judicial / moral" model to this question and think in terms of our sharing in the moral culpability for Adam's sin.

This has always struck me as rather odd, since it is hard to make sense of the notion that we are responsible for the actions of another person who lived long ago.

I think the correct paradigm is more "physicalistic". When Adam sinned, a fundamental change occurred deep in the fabric of reality. Sin infected the world at the "DNA level", ensuring that we quite possibly inherit a propensity to sin through a specifically genetic mechanism. So, we are born with "genetic damage" that drives us to sin. We are not so much "guilty" as we are "damaged". And God solves the damage on Calvary where He accomplishes something a lot more "real" than a kind of purely moral "He dies for your sins" kind of atonement. At the cross, the fundamental damage to the universe is undone - or at least the major victory is accomplished.

The Cross involves much more than a "judicial subsitution". A very real force in the universe - the power of sin - is broken and disarmed.

And on the environmental issue, one needs to remember the nature of our stewardship. It is not one of "ruling" over nature as the world, and unfortunately most of the church does things. It is more in line with this:

42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.

I do not wish to divert the thread, but I would have expected Christians to be the most environmentally inclined people of all. God tells Adam and Eve to take care of his world. The earth is God's good creation and we should care for it, not treat it as either a gold mine or an ashtray.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Since it's becoming clear to me, Baptist means adhereing to certain doctrines AS WELL as a plain interpretation of scripture, I've decided. I'm not longer a Baptist.

Congratulations, you’ve just been freed from the Matrix…

Now your journey to the truth can begin, but only you can make this journey. In regard to our sin nature, may I suggest you start reading the Early Church Fathers and Desert Fathers and work your way forward…you will be surprised at what you find in regard to how the early Church viewed and taught about our sin nature and how the RCC’s theologians built the frame work of the modern day Protestants view.

Feel free to PM me and I would be happy to suggest some good reading material. BTW, what will be hashed and rehashed here about sin nature has already been dealt with centuries ago.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[webdog]

I see the sin nature as part of being what constitutes a human. In the same way it is genetically written on our DNA that we will walk, talk, laugh, etc., we will also sin (not might). I believe this was interjected into our DNA after the fall, just like physical death was. Like walking, talking, etc. sin does not happen at the same age for each person.

 

[Palatka51]

Give one, two year old a club and another an ice-cream cone and you'll soon figure out the sin nature of the two. One will not share and the other is going to take it at all cost.

 

[Amy.G]

I think Webdog and Palatka51 hit the proverbial nail on the head.

 

[Rubato 1]

Hey. You don't have to be a Baptist. Go, spend time alone, and study the Bible free from anyone's opinions or books or questions.

Be a Bible-believer (the born-again objective kind) and you will find yourself identified as one; by others, not yourself...


On the other hand, if you want to believe in works salvation, pray to statues and dead people, baptize people against their free will, and persecute those who dont' believe like you and get in your way, PM Agnus Dei and you'll be set.

 

[TCGreek]

I too am in agreement with Webdog,

and

therefore man does not have two natures but one.

 

[Palatka51]

I too am in agreement with Webdog,

and

therefore man does not have two natures but one.

How does that work with Galations chapter 5:16-26?

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[TCGreek]

How does that work with Galations chapter 5:16-26?

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The Spirit of Holiness has taken up residence in our contaminated body.

Notice that the conflict is between our flesh and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Palatka51]

The Spirit of Holiness has taken up residence in our contaminated body.

Notice that the conflict is between our flesh and the Holy Spirit.

Wouldn't that imply that we struggle with 2 natures once we are born again? I agree that before we are saved that we have one nature. It's just that it seems to me that I am having to deny what I want to do only to have done what I did not want to do. IOW I want to please the flesh, but the Spirit causes me to do contrary to what I actually wanted.

 

[webdog]

Wouldn't that imply that we struggle with 2 natures once we are born again? I agree that before we are saved that we have one nature. It's just that it seems to me that I am having to deny what I want to do only to have done what I did not want to do. IOW I want to please the flesh, but the Spirit causes me to do contrary to what I actually wanted.

Since the Bible says His spirit becomes one with our spirit, I would say we do have two natures as believers (what I think "new creation" implies).

 

[TCGreek]

Wouldn't that imply that we struggle with 2 natures once we are born again? I agree that before we are saved that we have one nature. It's just that it seems to me that I am having to deny what I want to do only to have done what I did not want to do. IOW I want to please the flesh, but the Spirit causes me to do contrary to what I actually wanted.

Unless the Spirit within us must be thought of as a separate nature, I don't see the two-nature concept.

I really might be missing something.

 

[TCGreek]

Since the Bible says His spirit becomes one with our spirit, I would say we do have two natures as believers (what I think "new creation" implies).

Where does the Bible say that our spirit becomes one with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Palatka51]

Where does the Bible say that our spirit becomes one with the Holy Spirit?

John 17:20-23
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Could these verses indicate Webdog's premise?

 

[TCGreek]

John 17:20-23
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Could these verses indicate Webdog's premise?

Palatka51, that's a prayer for unity among believers.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Spirit aids in such, but it's not the same thing as saying that our inner spirit and the Holy Spirit become one and the same thing.