What is Sin?

[Amy.G]

I believe that God can bestow His grace on whom He wishes. God is Righteous. He is also Love. But we can only see what is written. I hope God has mercy on all. Out of my hands though.

So, basically you don't know. You don't see anything in scripture about this subject?

 

[David Michael Harris]

That doesn't answer the question. How are babies saved? Or since they are all born condemned, as you say, I assume you think they are all going to hell.

I don't want anyone to go to hell Amy, maybe the devil deserves it. But I like you are just caught up in this mess. Thank you Adam.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: I have explained how I believe infants are saved. They are covered by the blood of Christ.

HP: You certaintly have not told us according to Scripture they are saved, neither does Scripture tell us they need to be saved. Your philosophy is not founded in reason or Scripture.

 

[David Michael Harris]

So, basically you don't know. You don't see anything in scripture about this subject?

Amy, I have told you my stand point. All in Adam die. All in Christ will live. It's Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DMH: I don't want anyone to go to hell Amy, maybe the devil deserves it. But I like you are just caught up in this mess. Thank you Adam.

HP: No we are not just caught up in a mess due to Adam. We, on our own, have voluntarily sinned and violated known commandments of God without force or coercion. Apart from sincere acknowledgement of our sin being our own fault and not that of another, just as the one thief on the cross clearly acknowledged, and sincerely repented of, none shall see God.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: You certaintly have not told us according to Scripture they are saved, neither does Scripture tell us they need to be saved. Your philosophy is not founded in reason or Scripture.

I most certainly did. I said that children sin, but it is in ignorance. In OT, sacrifice was made for sins of ignorance. Christ is our sacrifice now and has also made atonement for sins of ignorance. You can disagree all you want, but that is what I see in scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy we need to have a discussion on the meaning of sins of ignorance. They are not as you suppose.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy we need to have a discussion on the meaning of sins of ignorance. They are not as you suppose.

Start another thread. For now I have to go. :wavey:

 

[webdog]

Why should the answer by no.
God has placed man as the head of the household, and the parents as his authority over the children. In effect, as far as the children are concerned, they stand in the place of God. To disobey the parents is to disobey God. Hence the command: Honor thy father and mother.
Violating mom and dad's law is to violate God's law. There is an innate knowledge of that. They don't need theology to tell them that.

Do you mean to tell me when my 2 year old daughter who can barely speak is told not to touch something, she automatically knows she is violating God's law? Sin is the willful transgression of God's law, and in order to be held accountable for doing so, knowledge of said law needs to exist. I know you hold to Augustine's view, and you need your view to be true in order for Augustine's "system" to work, but it is false.

 

[webdog]

If a child picks up a loaded gun and shoots his brother and kills him, he has broken the law. He committed murder. However, because he is a child and had no understanding of the consequences of his actions, the law will find him not guilty. Even in our wicked world, there is mercy to be found.

The same is true of children who sin in context of God's laws. Yes, he breaks God's laws, but it is in ignorance. Christ has atoned for that sin.

Children will and do sin because it is in their nature to do so, but just as God made provision for sins of ignorance in the OT, so Christ has made provision for those sins through His blood under the New Covenant.

edited...see it was already addressed

 

[webdog]

I always thought you had to be born again? But then again maybe we should ignore what Christ said and listen to theologians.

Since we are born again via faith, due tell how a fetus or an infant can have faith.

 

[webdog]

I believe that God can bestow His grace on whom He wishes. God is Righteous. He is also Love. But we can only see what is written. I hope God has mercy on all. Out of my hands though.

You say God can bestow grace on who He wants to...can He bestow salvation on those apart from faith?

 

[webdog]

Amy, I have told you my stand point. All in Adam die. All in Christ will live. It's Bible.

Here is the problem, since you claim all are sinners in Adam, Scripture states "so as..." in the connection to Christ. All must be in Christ as well in your model.

I believe the biblical model is the fact we are in Adam's condition the same way Adam got there...by sinning. We are in Christ in similar fashion...by sharing in His work as well.

 

[steaver]

You say God can bestow grace on who He wants to...can He bestow salvation on those apart from faith?

This was recently coved in another thread in which you participated in. If you remember, it was pointed out that one cannot place God in their own little box of reasonings.

"Born-again" is entirely the work of God through Spirit testifying with spirit. God is not limited to the flesh of man. He doesn't need the spirit/person to have a brain or a mouth that He may communicate with the person. God knows us even while He is knitting us together in the womb. The inner man, or the spirit of man, is a mystery even to us who are of full age.

Question; Do you believe it is impossible for God to speak with a baby in the womb?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: I believe the biblical model is the fact we are in Adam's condition the same way Adam got there...by sinning. We are in Christ in similar fashion...by sharing in His work.

HP: Sounds Biblical to me. :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I believe the biblical model is the fact we are in Adam's condition the same way Adam got there...by sinning.

This is incorrect. We are in Adam's condition through Adam's seed. Scripture makes this very clear.

Here is the problem, since you claim all are sinners in Adam, Scripture states "so as..." in the connection to Christ. All must be in Christ as well in your model.

No problem at all. You are correct that all must be in Christ to be saved.

:jesus:

 

[webdog]

This is incorrect. We are in Adam's condition through Adam's seed. Scripture makes this very clear.

...then using the etymology of the phrase, we must also be in Christ through no cause of our own as well. If we need nothing to be in Adam, we need nothing to be in Christ. I think we both agree that faith is necessary, so your conclusion cannot be the case.

 

[webdog]

This was recently coved in another thread in which you participated in. If you remember, it was pointed out that one cannot place God in their own little box of reasonings.

"Born-again" is entirely the work of God through Spirit testifying with spirit. God is not limited to the flesh of man. He doesn't need the spirit/person to have a brain or a mouth that He may communicate with the person. God knows us even while He is knitting us together in the womb. The inner man, or the spirit of man, is a mystery even to us who are of full age.

Question; Do you believe it is impossible for God to speak with a baby in the womb?

:jesus:

You start with a false presuppostion...that if I take Scripture at face value, I am placing God in a "box of reasonings". That is a strawman argument. Scripture states emphatically spiritually dead people NEED faith in Christ to be justified. That is immutable truth...a fact. I do believe it is impossible for God to speak to a baby in the womb for the simple notion we know how we receive information from Scripture...faith comes by hearing (understanding) and that through the Word of God. Hearing / understanding require the ability and mental capacity to do so. It is spiritual science fiction to claim a fetus can exhibit faith without a fully developed mind needed to understand something.

 

[DHK]

Do you mean to tell me when my 2 year old daughter who can barely speak is told not to touch something, she automatically knows she is violating God's law? Sin is the willful transgression of God's law, and in order to be held accountable for doing so, knowledge of said law needs to exist. I know you hold to Augustine's view, and you need your view to be true in order for Augustine's "system" to work, but it is false.

God's law is for children to obey their parents.
If a child knows right from wrong as their parents have taught them, and in the rebellion of their own heart disobeys their parent (even at the age of 2), then yes, of course it is sin.
You don't have to be a theologian to sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You don't have to be a theologian to sin.

HP: Neither does one have to engage common sense to post. :smilewinkgrin: