Heavenly Pilgrim
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Strictly speaking, nothing is sin that is not a willful transgression of a known commandment of God.
Hows that? Better?
Hows that? Better?
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What is Sin?
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Strictly speaking, nothing is sin that is not a willful transgression of a known commandment of God.
Hows that? Better?
I would only add that sin can be a trangression or omission to a known commandment of God.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
I would say, yes, if in fact the omission is willful. Sin is not an omission of something not known and not willfully omitted. Disagree? Possibly you might have a Scripture?
You seem to believe a person can act apart from their will. All acts are acts of our will, i.e. willfully committed, or not. So, yes. I would reference James 4:17, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
Strictly speaking, nothing is sin that is not a willful transgression of a known commandment of God.
Hows that? Better?
You can't be serious!
Jesus was wrong when he defined violation of the two of the ten commandments to be violated by unjust anger and a MERE LOOK OF LUST???
Paul was wrong in defining sin as COMING SHORT of being and doing what God is and does (Rom. 3:23; 1 Cor. 10:31)?
Jesus was wrong in commanding men to love the Lord their God with ALL their heart and ALL their strength and mind! Does ALL mean ALL? Would coming short of "ALL" be sin by your definition?
Was Paul wrong when he said whatsoever is not of faith is sin?
glfredrick
New Member
Strictly speaking, nothing is sin that is not a willful transgression of a known commandment of God.
Hows that? Better?
Not better at all. Seriously deficient as a definition of sin.
We sin by commission, by omission, purposefully and by accident. Unless or until you include all biblical categories of sin, including a simple "missing the mark" you have failed to define sin as God does.
Oh, and there is still that elephant in the room that I mentioned before very briefly -- the issue of our separation from God, with is defined biblically as our "sin" versus our "sins" (those things we do as listed above). We don't even always realize that we are separated from God, and so cannot even confess that sin until we are made aware of it by the working of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God, so your definition is even more yet off-base and lacking substance.
"We sin by commission, by omission, purposefully and by accident. Unless or until you include all biblical categories of sin, including a simple "missing the mark" you have failed to define sin as God does."
This is right. Sin is missing the mark of God's prefect righteousness. And since no man, save Jesus, was or is perfect, every person sins in thought, word and deed. Or as the old saying goes, there's a pound of flesh in all we do.
This is right. Sin is missing the mark of God's prefect righteousness. And since no man, save Jesus, was or is perfect, every person sins in thought, word and deed. Or as the old saying goes, there's a pound of flesh in all we do.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Absolutely one can act against apart from ones will. Have you ever heard of an accident? I can remember waking up one morning and sticking a cue tip in my ear, when I had a quick muscle spasm and sent the cue tip right though my ear drum. Trust me, that was an act apart from my will.
HP: Simply not true. The above is a clear illustration of an act I did that in no way was a product of my will. It was an involuntary act due to a muscle spasm. Legion are the illustrations I could give.
HP: Not so fast,. You have not proven in any way that all acts are acts of the will as you claim they are. Establish that point first. The Scripture you cite does not establish your point in the least.
Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: Speak for yourself if you so desire but don't count me in. That is certainly not my testimony.
Support the notion from Scripture that sin is defined as you define it: "missing the mark of God's perfect righteousness." I would not believe that such is a Scriptural concept of sin. Where does Scripture define sin in the manner you describe?
Even in the OT Moses was clear as to the reasonableness' of God's law and the clear ability every moral agent had to obey it.
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Ok, this is getting a little immature. Obviously, if I sneeze I have acted in an involuntary manner. When any rational adult speaks of 'acts of the will' they are speaking of moral actions; those capable of being judged morally right or wrong. I think I'll bow out of this, and let the kids play.
Sin, "hamartia" - "to miss the mark or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong"
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If it is getting immature, it is a direct result of your comment. You cannot blame anyone but yourself, unless you were under some coercion to make the comment you did. You said:
HP: Take this discussion to a level you see as mature. You need to say what you believe or change what you say. :wavey:
Hp
I did qualify my statement for those who cant see the obvious. I'm willing to try to help you, but,first you need a basic understanding of sin. The NT word for sin means to miss the mark. If your denying this you simply dont know your bible.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Post your Scripture that states sin is missing the mark.
The word "sin" by defintion means missing the mark. Look it up.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Pastor, from your comments as to what you see as sin in your own life, you simply do not understand what morality entails and the principles that define it. Your statement that said:
You need to tell us how you separate acts of the will that are moral and acts of the will that are not moral, and both of those from involuntary acts. You might just start with defining what you mean by moral.
This is not childish Pastor. If you are going to speak of moral actions you better be able to define what you mean by that term and what you do not mean. To just make a blanket statement as you did serves only to confuse and camouflage the truth.
HP: Your comment show clearly that you have not or will not separate moral issues from involuntary actions. You cannot say what you said and then say 'but I am only referring to moral actions,' because there is a stark contradiction between you first remark and your last. Involuntary acts of the sensibility are acts but do not involve the will nor are they moral. Choosing to wipe your runny nose is indeed and act of the will but not a moral act. Even though such an act is not morla, it certainly does involve the will.
You need to tell us how you separate acts of the will that are moral and acts of the will that are not moral, and both of those from involuntary acts. You might just start with defining what you mean by moral.
This is not childish Pastor. If you are going to speak of moral actions you better be able to define what you mean by that term and what you do not mean. To just make a blanket statement as you did serves only to confuse and camouflage the truth.
I qualified the statement you insist on quoting some time ago. Do you not know how to follow the flow of a discussion? Moral actions are defined by God's law. We sin when we fail to meet the standards of God moral law. Your failure to grasp basic biblical doctrine is disconcerting. I.m willing to help you but you need to display a teachable spirit in ord er for me to do so.
HP, What do you beleive sin is?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: First, I did not ask you to help me. This is a debate not a help line.
I can follow most discussions fine if they are not filled with stark contradictions thank you. I pointed out the contradictions in your statements and illustrated different actions of man, i.e., involuntary, voluntary, and morally voluntary. If you desire to communicate, define for us the distinctions in any way you so desire, but please define them so we can judge our positions as either in accordance to truth or in error.
HP: We agree on that point as stated, but that is not a definition of moral. Define moral law in your own terms.
HP: From your own testimony, you violate that every day. IF that is true, what right have you to teach anything about the law? Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
You have defined God's moral law as a theoretical impossibility to keep. You might as well tell me it is immoral not to stand flat footed and jump over the moon. If morality is impossible to keep, we have a clear problem with your definition. You have just made God out to be a tyrant of untold proportions, demanding impossibilities out of man and punishing man eternity for failure to do that which even God cannot do, i.e., avoid a necessitated fate.
Your idea of morality is clearly skewed.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
I personally like Wesleys definition which I most often use. He defined sin as I did several times above.
Strictly speaking, nothing is sin but willful disobedience to a known commandment of God.
Strictly speaking, nothing is sin but willful disobedience to a known commandment of God.
HP, Do you sin?
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