So, where was Lazarus then until Jesus raised him? And wherever he was, then what's the point of resurrection? (Not only his, but anyone's)
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What Is Soul Sleep?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
So, where was Lazarus then until Jesus raised him? And wherever he was, then what's the point of resurrection? (Not only his, but anyone's)
Yep read everyone of those verses no where does it say the soul is asleep[/QUOTE]
It doesn't... And I particularly like the comments from a contributor to John Gills Exposition Of The Bible on Luke 23:43 which we are all very familiar with... I'm just posting the last part... Brother Glen
In the salvation of one of the thieves \@vital\@ \@theology finds one of its finest demonstrations.\@ \@Sacrementalism was refuted,\@ for the thief was saved without recourse to baptism, the Lord's Supper, church, ceremony, or good works. \@The dogma of purgatory was refuted,\@ for this vile sinner was instantly transformed into a saint and made fit for paradise apart from his personal expiation of a single sin. \@The teaching of universalism was refuted,\@ for only one was saved of all who might have been saved. Jesus did not say, "Today shall ye be with me in paradise", but "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." \@The notion of soul-sleep was refuted,\@ for the clear implication of the entire incident is that the redeemed thief would be in conscious fellowship with his Saviour in paradise even while his body disintegrated in some grave. Too, it is doubtful whether any other gospel incident presents the plan of salvation more clearly or simply.--Dr. Charles R. Erdman)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Yep read everyone of those verses no where does it say the soul is asleep[/QUOTE]
The person (not the person's finger) sleeps. The soul IS the person themselves ... so while it is the case that the body is dead - decayed and returned to dust - the person "is asleep in Jesus" -- that is the soul.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"The living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5- there are no cycles of thought for the dormant soul. So that means no marking the passage of time.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Everyone has free will - they can ignore the details in these scriptures as they wish.
Indeed, no one will be hurt whose belief on this is not right.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1 Thess 4 is a great place to see it.
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
At death the spirit goes to God in a dormant state.
John 11
11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
2 Cor 5:1-8 tells us we have TWO bodies - the one we have here on earth that is decaying - and the one that will be given us at the 1Cor 15 coming of Christ. So then
the middle state that is BETWEEN those two events - is a dormant one - the spirit unclothed having no body and dormant
Having free will - each person may choose - just as Adam and Eve were free to choose -- does not mean that error is not something that Satan can use to his advantage and to our hurt.
Take the case of Saul going to the witch asking her to "Conjur up for me - by thy familiar spirit whomever I shall name" -- this ended up being "for his hurt" according to the book of Chronicles.
======================================
Matthew 24 says that there comes "signs and wonders" such that if possible Satan could "deceive the very elect" - now we see how he "deceived Eve" and king Saul - but then the supposition that ignoring the scriptures on this point "won't hurt you" is to not learn the lessons of the past.
The "significance" of being wrong on this Bible doctrine has a huge downside depending on how Satan chooses to take advantage of that free will choice to ignore the scriptures above.
Last edited:
The person (not the person's finger) sleeps. The soul IS the person themselves ... so while it is the case that the body is dead - decayed and returned to dust - the person "is asleep in Jesus" -- that is the soul.[/QUOTE]
Show me in scripture where the soul is described as asleep. You have failed to do so thus far.
does scripture answer these questions?
If the souls of those who die fall asleep, then what were Moses and Elijah doing with Jesus at His Transfiguration?
I believe they were seeing a vision of the future. See John 3:13 and Acts 2:29
How could Moses and Elijah see a vision of the future if they were asleep??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Show me in scripture where the soul is described as asleep. You have failed to do so thus far.[/QUOTE]
man formed of dust -- BECAME a "living soul" Genesis 2.
The PERSON is the soul - and HAS a body.
1 Peter 3:20 NASB
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NKJV
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
"Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM... Lazarus is dead" John 11
The person "sleeps" - is dormant at death - the person knows nothing in death Eccl 9:5... no time at all passes for the person.
Some call it "soul sleep" others "person sleep" - call it what you will.
God is the God of the living, as jesus stated that all who believe in Him will not taste death, so we will all die physically, but live on to be with Him spiritually, awaiting the glorification of our bodies at His second coming!
man formed of dust -- BECAME a "living soul" Genesis 2.
The PERSON is the soul - and HAS a body.
1 Peter 3:20 NASB
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NKJV
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
"Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM... Lazarus is dead" John 11[/QUOTE]
Those from from Jesus were still alive in paradise, as Jesus took them back to Heaven with Him at His resurrection!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
man formed of dust -- BECAME a "living soul" Genesis 2.
The PERSON is the soul - and HAS a body.
1 Peter 3:20 NASB
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NKJV
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
"Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM... Lazarus is dead" John 11
"Alive in paradise while DEAD in CHRIST??" You are simply "quoting you"
The PERSON is the soul - and HAS a body.
1 Peter 3:20 NASB
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NKJV
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
"Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM... Lazarus is dead" John 11
"Alive in paradise while DEAD in CHRIST??" You are simply "quoting you"
man formed of dust -- BECAME a "living soul" Genesis 2.
The PERSON is the soul - and HAS a body.
1 Peter 3:20 NASB
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NKJV
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
"Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM... Lazarus is dead" John 11
The person "sleeps" - is dormant at death - the person knows nothing in death Eccl 9:5... no time at all passes for the person.
Some call it "soul sleep" others "person sleep" - call it what you will.[/QUOTE]
2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
“Have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mat 22:31-32).
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel” (Heb 12:22-24)
2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
“Have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mat 22:31-32).
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel” (Heb 12:22-24)[/QUOTE]
BOB just refuses to see that the NT sees alseep as referring to body died, but not all of the person!
Let's switch gears, then. What about an unbeliever? What happens after death? For sure the body is laying there dead just like the believer. What else?