Featured What is "Sovereignty"??

What would you consider to be something, in my theology from what you've seen so far, which would suggest to you that anyone can or does thwart any part of God's ordained will? I haven't said anything like that. That's why I call it a caricature. And you have to do that, because the arguments work against either Calvinism or Arminianism, both of which start with the presupposition of exhaustive foreknowledge.

But that is the whole argument between the two--how to make sense of a senseless conclusion. Whatever you do, you can't say that God WANTS sin to happen--all of the sin that mankind ever commits. As soon as you do, you make God the creator of sin.

And whatever you do, you can't make sense of the crystal ball God has to look in to see what you or I are going to do.

The solution to that fight is one both groups fight against. It's a solution that isn't allowed, not because of anything in the scripture, but because of a presupposition about what God's foreknowledge entails.

How does God give angels and men the capacity to disobey? Is their sin capacity limited? Not according to the scripture: [Gen 11:6 KJV] 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
God limited it in the moment, not from the foundation of the world.

You're not asking me that question, because that is not my position. Go ask someone who thinks that. Go ask a Calvinist, who cannot imagine a God that can cope with people deciding anything on their own, and has to have God decide everything for them. Go ask an Arminian, who cannot imagine a God who can think on His feet due the intelligence He gave mankind, and so he gives Him a crystal ball to see what's going to happen in the future to get the upper hand.

Balaam? Haman? Nebuchadnezzar? Saul? Pharisees and Saducees? God didn't stop any of those folks in the moment in your view--He had to have done it "before time began", unless He changes the future in the moment, which NEITHER Calvinism or Arminianism allows for.

Please address this inconsistency--that if God actually does anything at the moment, it is something He is bound to do from the beginning of time. Bound to do! That means God is subservient to time--He has no choice. That can only drive a fixed futurist into Calvinism, which @1689Dave was correct about--that it has God as the creator of evil.

 

In a sense this could be true. If Adam sinned because God planted a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, then it is true. But God isn't the author of sin in this case if He made Adam with the ability to choose good or evil.

If you combine Is 46:10 ([Isa 46:10 KJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure) to explain that God knows everything because He ordains everything, this verse explains that everything is ordained for His pleasure. See confession quote below.

Just so you know, I don't think Is 46:10 is rightly used in the confession, because 46:10 does not say it is talking about "all" things. But once you remove the "all" things idea from Is 46:10, you're left with the concept that God declares the end from the beginning, but not every aspect of everything in between, and we have no record of what He has declared specifically for 1689Dave or Derf or Calminian, so it's impossible to test Is 46:10 in individual cases.

Calvinism doesn't base God's foreknowledge on "what would happen", but on what God ordains, as here in the 1689:
3-1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. (footnote: Isaiah 46:10)

When you say He did it "foreseeing what would happen", you jump into Arminian territory. So, whether "Calminian" is self contradictory or not, you're there!

I believe it is self-contradictory, as you do. I believe the London Confession of 1689 is self-contradictory, as you apparently do, when it says both of these things:
A. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably.
B. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

The authors of the Westminster confession, and by progression the 1689, knew this was contradictory. They KNEW it!! That's why they put this statement in with it:
C. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes.

What would cause someone to insert contradictory statements in their confession? A commitment to the idea that God knows everything we will ever do or think from before the foundation of the world--a settled future, which the bible never claims. NEVER! Prophets delivered the word of the Lord that had things that are going to happen in the future, but those things could be avoided. Like the destruction of Nineveh in 40 days (didn't happen), or Hezekiah dying of his illness (didn't happen).
Nineveh: [Jon 3:2, 4 KJV] 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. ... 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Hezekiah: [Isa 38:1 KJV] 1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

It's not that the prophets were wrong. They gave the message from the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind when the subjects of the prophecy appealed to His mercy.
Nineveh: [Jon 3:10 KJV] 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
Hezekiah: [Isa 38:5 KJV] 5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

How can a God that knows everything that He or anyone else will do in the future "add" to someone's days??

This is backed up in Jeremiah, where God says
[Jer 18:7-8 KJV] 7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it]; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

"At what instant" is translated in other versions as "If at any time". So, if God ordains all things from the beginning of time, He must ordain some changes to His own mind. Which is contradictory.

 

Well, that’s disappointing. After writing out in my post the very statement from the 1689 that says God is not the author of sin, you feel it is necessary to tell me that it says God is not the author of sin?

Makes me think you only read in sound bites.

Let’s try again. Both confessions admit that there is a contradiction between God ordaining EVERYTHING that comes to pass without any outside agents, and God not being the author of sin. That’s the reason why they have to put that in there, because it is the obvious conclusion. But putting the statement in the confession does not make the contradiction go away. It merely emphasizes it.

 

I wasn't sure if your response was aimed at me or at 1689Dave. After rereading it, I think you meant it for me, except for the first couple paragraphs. I'll reply to the rest.

I'd like to suggest that, besides this being an ad hominem attack, it shows you are out of ammunition for your own position, since you repeat it. I'll repeat my answer to you, I don't think God is weak or incapable. In fact, I think He is more capable than you seem to think He is, as I don't believe God needs to know the future in order to make sure His purposes are accomplished. I think He's capable of dealing with humans within the bounds of what He has laid out for them--choosing good or evil in real time. Does God react to humans? Yes, He does. He promises us that He will. He says that He will answer prayers--that's a reaction to humans. Does He react to sin? Yes, He does. When a person sins, God often sends catastrophe their way. I don't see why you would reject such a concept, since it is explicitly expressed in the bible.

I can't say for sure, but I have a suggestion. Worship. Worship requires free agency, else it is not worship. Imagine that you program you computer to say things like "You are great! I love you! You are the greatest programmer in the whole world." You might get some satisfaction out of such a program, but it is decidedly not worship, since the computer has no choice. Both angels and men have the capacity to worship God, therefore they have the capacity NOT to worship God. They have both the capacity to obey and disobey God. It's part of the package.

Allowing, yes. Putting constraints on, yes. Directing Satan's actions? I'm not so sure. That sounds too much like authoring sin to me.

What you should be doing, as part of that trusting, is to see how God describes Himself, rather than assume your image of God is the right one without biblical support. That's what Job did wrong, so if you are following Job, you should learn from his mistakes.

God never describes Himself as deciding all things from before the foundation of the world. He never describes Himself as looking into the future to see what people will do. Neither of these concepts are presented by the bible. And God's sovereignty is definitely not dependent on such concepts.

 

You should stop doing that.


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You are shut down by your own user-namesake.


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Do you not know what a "namesake" is?