What is "Sovereignty"??

[Derf B]

Well, you didn't answer my question, but I will answer yours.
A God who is controlled by the creation he created is no longer Sovereign, but is instead under the dominion of created beings. Therefore, in order to be truly Sovereign, God must be fully in authority to act and will as He so decides with nothing thwarting his ordained will.

What would you consider to be something, in my theology from what you've seen so far, which would suggest to you that anyone can or does thwart any part of God's ordained will? I haven't said anything like that. That's why I call it a caricature. And you have to do that, because the arguments work against either Calvinism or Arminianism, both of which start with the presupposition of exhaustive foreknowledge.

But that is the whole argument between the two--how to make sense of a senseless conclusion. Whatever you do, you can't say that God WANTS sin to happen--all of the sin that mankind ever commits. As soon as you do, you make God the creator of sin.

And whatever you do, you can't make sense of the crystal ball God has to look in to see what you or I are going to do.

The solution to that fight is one both groups fight against. It's a solution that isn't allowed, not because of anything in the scripture, but because of a presupposition about what God's foreknowledge entails.

Being fully Sovereign does not make God the Creator of sin (Author). It does make God the Creator of both angels and men to whom he granted the capacity to disobey in rebellion. Why he gave both angels and men this capacity is something the Bible never explains. However, we see God being merciful to fallen angels in not destroying them immediately. We also see God being merciful with mankind, but to man we also see God being gracious to those whom he chooses to save by grace.

How does God give angels and men the capacity to disobey? Is their sin capacity limited? Not according to the scripture: [Gen 11:6 KJV] 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
God limited it in the moment, not from the foundation of the world.

God does not explain his choice. He, as the Sovereign King is not obligated to explain himself. In fact, we see Job demanding that God explain himself and when God comes, God doesn't explain himself, but instead God questions Job. That is what Sovereigns do. They don't bow to the demands of others. They ask the questions and demand that those under their dominion answer their questions. This is why Paul says, But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

God does what He wills. We have no right to question what He wills.

If God chooses to stop you from doing something against His ordained will, he will stop you cold. We see God doing this when he dealt with Balaam. We see God doing this when he stopped King Saul from harming David. We see this when God protects Hannaniah, Michael and Azariah (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego). We see this when God stops Haman. We see this when God stops the Sadducees and Pharisees from killing Jesus until the time God had appointed.

The Bible declares a Sovereign God, not a weak willed limp wristed God who is always reacting to the actions of men.

Again, I ask you, why would you want to worship such a weak God of your own imagination?

You're not asking me that question, because that is not my position. Go ask someone who thinks that. Go ask a Calvinist, who cannot imagine a God that can cope with people deciding anything on their own, and has to have God decide everything for them. Go ask an Arminian, who cannot imagine a God who can think on His feet due the intelligence He gave mankind, and so he gives Him a crystal ball to see what's going to happen in the future to get the upper hand.

Balaam? Haman? Nebuchadnezzar? Saul? Pharisees and Saducees? God didn't stop any of those folks in the moment in your view--He had to have done it "before time began", unless He changes the future in the moment, which NEITHER Calvinism or Arminianism allows for.

Please address this inconsistency--that if God actually does anything at the moment, it is something He is bound to do from the beginning of time. Bound to do! That means God is subservient to time--He has no choice. That can only drive a fixed futurist into Calvinism, which @1689Dave was correct about--that it has God as the creator of evil.

 

[AustinC]

What would you consider to be something, in my theology from what you've seen so far, which would suggest to you that anyone can or does thwart any part of God's ordained will? I haven't said anything like that. That's why I call it a caricature. And you have to do that, because the arguments work against either Calvinism or Arminianism, both of which start with the presupposition of exhaustive foreknowledge.

But that is the whole argument between the two--how to make sense of a senseless conclusion. Whatever you do, you can't say that God WANTS sin to happen--all of the sin that mankind ever commits. As soon as you do, you make God the creator of sin.

And whatever you do, you can't make sense of the crystal ball God has to look in to see what you or I are going to do.

The solution to that fight is one both groups fight against. It's a solution that isn't allowed, not because of anything in the scripture, but because of a presupposition about what God's foreknowledge entails.
How does God give angels and men the capacity to disobey? Is their sin capacity limited? Not according to the scripture: [Gen 11:6 KJV] 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
God limited it in the moment, not from the foundation of the world.
You're not asking me that question, because that is not my position. Go ask someone who thinks that. Go ask a Calvinist, who cannot imagine a God that can cope with people deciding anything on their own, and has to have God decide everything for them. Go ask an Arminian, who cannot imagine a God who can think on His feet due the intelligence He gave mankind, and so he gives Him a crystal ball to see what's going to happen in the future to get the upper hand.

Balaam? Haman? Nebuchadnezzar? Saul? Pharisees and Saducees? God didn't stop any of those folks in the moment in your view--He had to have done it "before time began", unless He changes the future in the moment, which NEITHER Calvinism or Arminianism allows for.

Please address this inconsistency--that if God actually does anything at the moment, it is something He is bound to do from the beginning of time. Bound to do! That means God is subservient to time--He has no choice. That can only drive a fixed futurist into Calvinism, which @1689Dave was correct about--that it has God as the creator of evil.

Derf, you have created an entire circular argument from the figment of your imagination. You've argued yourself into a groundhogs day loop of which you cannot extract yourself. I can't help you with your own man-made dilemma.

What I can do is lean upon the truth of scripture, which is God has all things in his very capable hands so that nothing happens outside of his ordained will, for his ordained purpose.

If you desire to see God as incapacitated by your decisions, that is for you to hold. I won't join you in that world where your decisions can throw God into a tailspin.

 

[1689Dave]

Where does scripture state that God created sin, as you have very clearly asserted. I'm just a third party looking to see where you get evidence for your claim. I appreciate context around a verse so if you would kindly quote the passage and point out the verse that would be helpful.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (NCPB)

He also causes people to sin.

 

[1689Dave]

I assume you are referring to this verse:
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

But if you read that verse, God tells us on what basis He knows the end (not the "future", mind you, but the "end"). He's telling us the "things...not yet done", saying "I will do all my pleasure." This verse confirms what I was saying--that God knows based on what He plans to accomplish. Otherwise, it confirms what @1689Dave was saying, that God takes pleasure in sin, if you apply it to everything.

Where did I say "God takes pleasure in sin?"

 

[1689Dave]

Thanks for jumping in, Calminian. I love the username!

My first response is, "Why is God required to know the future?" The bible doesn't ever say God knows the future, except where it talks about what He plans to do. In other words, He knows what He will accomplish, and He knows that He will accomplish it. But unless the future is a fixed thing, that He Himself cannot change (else it wouldn't be a fixed thing), it must be an unfixed thing.

There are two ways a fixed future could work, as I've outlined above.
1. Calvinism: Where God ordains all that comes to pass, including being the author of sin (@1689Dave is consistent here!)
2. Arminianism: Where God can see the future, but doesn't determine it. It is already determined before man exists (or Satan), and it is unchangeable.

#2 may be offensive to Arminians, but think of it this way. Can God prevent an event that He has foreseen by looking into the future? If so, then the future's not fixed. If not, the future is, but God is powerless against it. The remedy, while still maintaining a fixed future, is that God determined everything--let that sink in--that was ever going to happen. That's Calvinism, which has God as the author of sin, as Dave pointed out so clearly.

This conundrum results from the supposition that God knows everything about the future, even what you are going to eat for breakfast 10 years from now. If the future is fixed, then it's fixed.

God can't both know something is going to happen in the future and prevent it from happening.

Didn't God create sin along with everything else is, as you boys think, he foresaw what would happen before he created it? No offence, but "Calminian" is self-contradictory if you know what both teach. It's like "Satananity."

 

[AustinC]

You're hung up on the idea that God created sin. We've been over this.

God, by His Sovereign will, gave Adam the capacity to rebel. God even knew that Adam would rebel when Adam was created (just as God knew Lucifer would rebel when Lucifer was created). God, in His Sovereignty, could have made it impossible to rebel and act contrary to God. God, for reasons He knows, said "yes you may" to both Lucifer and Adam. Thus the path of history flows according to the will of God.
It seems that you are looking for a human understanding and reason for the problem of sin. Without rampant free-will and human chaos leading the charge, you have no answer to the problem of sin. If your rampant free-will isn't true, then you hypothesize that God must have created sin, which leads you to think God must be evil. So, to you, your only recourse is to say God is weak and incapable of seeing future decisions (like Adams rebellion) until it actually happens. Then God must react.

I do not know why God allowed Adam (and Lucifer) to rebel. We have the book of Job that reveals God Sovereignly directing Satan and allowing Job's suffering. We see Job trying to answer you same question. We see, also, that God comes and does not answer Job's question, but instead demands answers from Job to illustrate that Job doesn't know much and God knows all. We either have faith in this God who is far above us and brings both good and bad, or...we curse God and die.
I follow Job's path.

Job 1:21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

Job 2:10 "Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Job 13:15-16 Though he slay me, I will hope in him; yet I will argue my ways to his face. This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him.

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

I have no need to look down on God and see him as less than, just because humanity is presently in rebellion toward Him. God's plan is being accomplished perfectly, according to his Sovereign will. I fully trust Him.

 

[Derf B]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (NCPB)

He also causes people to sin.

In a sense this could be true. If Adam sinned because God planted a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, then it is true. But God isn't the author of sin in this case if He made Adam with the ability to choose good or evil.

Where did I say "God takes pleasure in sin?"

If you combine Is 46:10 ([Isa 46:10 KJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure) to explain that God knows everything because He ordains everything, this verse explains that everything is ordained for His pleasure. See confession quote below.

Just so you know, I don't think Is 46:10 is rightly used in the confession, because 46:10 does not say it is talking about "all" things. But once you remove the "all" things idea from Is 46:10, you're left with the concept that God declares the end from the beginning, but not every aspect of everything in between, and we have no record of what He has declared specifically for 1689Dave or Derf or Calminian, so it's impossible to test Is 46:10 in individual cases.

Didn't God create sin along with everything else is, as you boys think, he foresaw what would happen before he created it? No offence, but "Calminian" is self-contradictory if you know what both teach. It's like "Satananity."

Calvinism doesn't base God's foreknowledge on "what would happen", but on what God ordains, as here in the 1689:
3-1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. (footnote: Isaiah 46:10)

When you say He did it "foreseeing what would happen", you jump into Arminian territory. So, whether "Calminian" is self contradictory or not, you're there!

I believe it is self-contradictory, as you do. I believe the London Confession of 1689 is self-contradictory, as you apparently do, when it says both of these things:
A. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably.
B. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

The authors of the Westminster confession, and by progression the 1689, knew this was contradictory. They KNEW it!! That's why they put this statement in with it:
C. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes.

What would cause someone to insert contradictory statements in their confession? A commitment to the idea that God knows everything we will ever do or think from before the foundation of the world--a settled future, which the bible never claims. NEVER! Prophets delivered the word of the Lord that had things that are going to happen in the future, but those things could be avoided. Like the destruction of Nineveh in 40 days (didn't happen), or Hezekiah dying of his illness (didn't happen).
Nineveh: [Jon 3:2, 4 KJV] 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. ... 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Hezekiah: [Isa 38:1 KJV] 1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

It's not that the prophets were wrong. They gave the message from the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind when the subjects of the prophecy appealed to His mercy.
Nineveh: [Jon 3:10 KJV] 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
Hezekiah: [Isa 38:5 KJV] 5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

How can a God that knows everything that He or anyone else will do in the future "add" to someone's days??

This is backed up in Jeremiah, where God says
[Jer 18:7-8 KJV] 7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it]; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

"At what instant" is translated in other versions as "If at any time". So, if God ordains all things from the beginning of time, He must ordain some changes to His own mind. Which is contradictory.

 

[1689Dave]

In a sense this could be true. If Adam sinned because God planted a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, then it is true. But God isn't the author of sin in this case if He made Adam with the ability to choose good or evil.



If you combine Is 46:10 ([Isa 46:10 KJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure) to explain that God knows everything because He ordains everything, this verse explains that everything is ordained for His pleasure. See confession quote below.

Just so you know, I don't think Is 46:10 is rightly used in the confession, because 46:10 does not say it is talking about "all" things. But once you remove the "all" things idea from Is 46:10, you're left with the concept that God declares the end from the beginning, but not every aspect of everything in between, and we have no record of what He has declared specifically for 1689Dave or Derf or Calminian, so it's impossible to test Is 46:10 in individual cases.

Calvinism doesn't base God's foreknowledge on "what would happen", but on what God ordains, as here in the 1689:
3-1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. (footnote: Isaiah 46:10)

When you say He did it "foreseeing what would happen", you jump into Arminian territory. So, whether "Calminian" is self contradictory or not, you're there!

I believe it is self-contradictory, as you do. I believe the London Confession of 1689 is self-contradictory, as you apparently do, when it says both of these things:
A. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably.
B. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

The authors of the Westminster confession, and by progression the 1689, knew this was contradictory. They KNEW it!! That's why they put this statement in with it:
C. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes.

What would cause someone to insert contradictory statements in their confession? A commitment to the idea that God knows everything we will ever do or think from before the foundation of the world--a settled future, which the bible never claims. NEVER! Prophets delivered the word of the Lord that had things that are going to happen in the future, but those things could be avoided. Like the destruction of Nineveh in 40 days (didn't happen), or Hezekiah dying of his illness (didn't happen).
Nineveh: [Jon 3:2, 4 KJV] 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. ... 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Hezekiah: [Isa 38:1 KJV] 1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

It's not that the prophets were wrong. They gave the message from the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind when the subjects of the prophecy appealed to His mercy.
Nineveh: [Jon 3:10 KJV] 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
Hezekiah: [Isa 38:5 KJV] 5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

How can a God that knows everything that He or anyone else will do in the future "add" to someone's days??

This is backed up in Jeremiah, where God says
[Jer 18:7-8 KJV] 7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it]; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

"At what instant" is translated in other versions as "If at any time". So, if God ordains all things from the beginning of time, He must ordain some changes to His own mind. Which is contradictory.

As the LBC1689 and WCoF both say, God is not the author of sin. He is the cause of sin. Adam is the author.

 

[Derf B]

As the LBC1689 and WCoF both say, God is not the author of sin. He is the cause of sin. Adam is the author.

Well, that’s disappointing. After writing out in my post the very statement from the 1689 that says God is not the author of sin, you feel it is necessary to tell me that it says God is not the author of sin?

Makes me think you only read in sound bites.

Let’s try again. Both confessions admit that there is a contradiction between God ordaining EVERYTHING that comes to pass without any outside agents, and God not being the author of sin. That’s the reason why they have to put that in there, because it is the obvious conclusion. But putting the statement in the confession does not make the contradiction go away. It merely emphasizes it.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, that’s disappointing. After writing out in my post the very statement from the 1689 that says God is not the author of sin, you feel it is necessary to tell me that it says God is not the author of sin?

Makes me think you only read in sound bites.

Let’s try again. Both confessions admit that there is a contradiction between God ordaining EVERYTHING that comes to pass without any outside agents, and God not being the author of sin. That’s the reason why they have to put that in there, because it is the obvious conclusion. But putting the statement in the confession does not make the contradiction go away. It merely emphasizes it.

I'm only saying God created all and you somehow think sin is an exception.

 

[AustinC]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (NCPB)

He also causes people to sin.

Let's look at a better translation.

Isaiah 45:1-7
Thus says the LORD to phis anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose
the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed: “I will go before you and level the exalted places,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron, I will give you the treasures of darkness and the
hoards in secret places,mthat you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may
know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Dave, you are not interpreting this passage in context and thus you are claiming something about God that God does not claim.
God does not say He created sin as you claim.

 

[Derf B]

I wasn't sure if your response was aimed at me or at 1689Dave. After rereading it, I think you meant it for me, except for the first couple paragraphs. I'll reply to the rest.

...

It seems that you are looking for a human understanding and reason for the problem of sin. Without rampant free-will and human chaos leading the charge, you have no answer to the problem of sin. If your rampant free-will isn't true, then you hypothesize that God must have created sin, which leads you to think God must be evil. So, to you, your only recourse is to say God is weak and incapable of seeing future decisions (like Adams rebellion) until it actually happens. Then God must react.

I'd like to suggest that, besides this being an ad hominem attack, it shows you are out of ammunition for your own position, since you repeat it. I'll repeat my answer to you, I don't think God is weak or incapable. In fact, I think He is more capable than you seem to think He is, as I don't believe God needs to know the future in order to make sure His purposes are accomplished. I think He's capable of dealing with humans within the bounds of what He has laid out for them--choosing good or evil in real time. Does God react to humans? Yes, He does. He promises us that He will. He says that He will answer prayers--that's a reaction to humans. Does He react to sin? Yes, He does. When a person sins, God often sends catastrophe their way. I don't see why you would reject such a concept, since it is explicitly expressed in the bible.

I do not know why God allowed Adam (and Lucifer) to rebel.

I can't say for sure, but I have a suggestion. Worship. Worship requires free agency, else it is not worship. Imagine that you program you computer to say things like "You are great! I love you! You are the greatest programmer in the whole world." You might get some satisfaction out of such a program, but it is decidedly not worship, since the computer has no choice. Both angels and men have the capacity to worship God, therefore they have the capacity NOT to worship God. They have both the capacity to obey and disobey God. It's part of the package.

We have the book of Job that reveals God Sovereignly directing Satan and allowing Job's suffering.

Allowing, yes. Putting constraints on, yes. Directing Satan's actions? I'm not so sure. That sounds too much like authoring sin to me.

We see Job trying to answer you same question. We see, also, that God comes and does not answer Job's question, but instead demands answers from Job to illustrate that Job doesn't know much and God knows all. We either have faith in this God who is far above us and brings both good and bad, or...we curse God and die.
I follow Job's path.

Job 1:21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

Job 2:10 "Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Job 13:15-16 Though he slay me, I will hope in him; yet I will argue my ways to his face. This will be my salvation, that the godless shall not come before him.

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

I have no need to look down on God and see him as less than, just because humanity is presently in rebellion toward Him. God's plan is being accomplished perfectly, according to his Sovereign will. I fully trust Him.

What you should be doing, as part of that trusting, is to see how God describes Himself, rather than assume your image of God is the right one without biblical support. That's what Job did wrong, so if you are following Job, you should learn from his mistakes.

God never describes Himself as deciding all things from before the foundation of the world. He never describes Himself as looking into the future to see what people will do. Neither of these concepts are presented by the bible. And God's sovereignty is definitely not dependent on such concepts.

 

[Salty]

ATTN: SIX HOUR WARNING - THIS THREAD will be closed no sooner than 830 am EDT / 530 am PDT

 

[1689Dave]

Let's look at a better translation.

Isaiah 45:1-7
Thus says the LORD to phis anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose
the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed: “I will go before you and level the exalted places,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron, I will give you the treasures of darkness and the
hoards in secret places,mthat you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may
know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Dave, you are not interpreting this passage in context and thus you are claiming something about God that God does not claim.
God does not say He created sin as you claim.

Whenever scripture proves us wrong, we seek relief through weak translations.

 

[Derf B]

Whenever scripture proves us wrong, we seek relief through weak translations.

You should stop doing that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[1689Dave]

You should stop doing that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not me doing it. How many people harp "bad translation" after being shut down by the trusted and proven versions?

 

[Derf B]

It's not me doing it. How many people harp "bad translation" after being shut down by the trusted and proven versions?

You are shut down by your own user-namesake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[1689Dave]

You are shut down by your own user-namesake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you claiming to be God?

 

[Derf B]

Are you claiming to be God?

Do you not know what a "namesake" is?

 

[1689Dave]

Do you not know what a "namesake" is?

Face it, you're worn out from beating a dead horse and only coming up with this type of petty bickering now.