What is "Sovereignty"??

[1689Dave]

I tried hanging out with calvinists for 15 years. They were good Christians. Most loved the Lord, but when I asked my pastor (one of those Calvinists) a question, he had to throw off Calvinism to give me a straight answer. He was honest.

You, however are not as mature as he was, since you can’t give me a straight answer, but you’re not willing to throw off the Calvinism for a minute.


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I'm curious. What was the question you asked and what part of Calvinism did the preacher "throw off" in order to give you a "straight answer". See if I can do better.

 

[Particular]

I tried hanging out with calvinists for 15 years. They were good Christians. Most loved the Lord, but when I asked my pastor (one of those Calvinists) a question, he had to throw off Calvinism to give me a straight answer. He was honest.

You, however are not as mature as he was, since you can’t give me a straight answer, but you’re not willing to throw off the Calvinism for a minute.


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What was the "question" that caused you to ignore the scripture when the pastor answered you?
It seems silly to reject so much scripture, just because a local shepherd didn't answer a question to your satisfaction. Please share the one question that became your obstacle.

 

[Yeshua1]

Which part of what I said doesn’t align with scripture? Don’t be lazy! Give references.

You should be trying to convince me, not just spouting your own philosophy.

And don’t forget to tie it back into the “sovereignty” topic.


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God being sovereign means that he can do anything that he wills to do that would not violate His nature or divine attributes!

 

[Derf B]

I'm curious. What was the question you asked and what part of Calvinism did the preacher "throw off" in order to give you a "straight answer". See if I can do better.

Why? You haven’t answered any of my other questions. Why would you think you could do better on that one?


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[1689Dave]

Why? You haven’t answered any of my other questions. Why would you think you could do better on that one?


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You might have been misled. Many pastors would be out of a job if they divulged all they knew believed in Calvinism. That's why Paul worked for a living.

 

[Derf B]

You might have been misled. Many pastors would be out of a job if they divulged all they knew believed in Calvinism. That's why Paul worked for a living.

You missed my point. How could do better at answering my questions than you did last time you answered my questions? Especially since you would not answer them before.


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[1689Dave]

You missed my point. How could do better at answering my questions than you did last time you answered my questions? Especially since you would not answer them before.


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I'm curious about what your questions was. And possibly the pastor dodged it not trusting you or your response? I don't commit myself to any I don't trust.

 

[Derf B]

I'm curious about what your questions was. And possibly the pastor dodged it not trusting you or your response? I don't commit myself to any I don't trust.

He didn’t dodge it. He answered well. But the answer did not support his very strong commitment to Calvinism.

It was related to Sovereignty, so I’ll let you take a shot, assuming I can remember the whole thing (it was several years ago). Please note that this was not what led me away from Calvinism, as I was not in agreement with it all, but some things, including the definition of sovereignty, have been a question for me for a while.

The scenario was a simple one. “If God is absolutely sovereign, and He has known what everyone will do from the foundation of the world, then Calvin was right, along with the Westminster confession, that God had to have ordained every single act of everyone for all time, right?

“Based on that, if a person robs a bank, the events that lead up to him robbing the bank are unavoidable, his robbing of the bank as a reaction to those events is unavoidable, and therefore, since it was always unavoidable, from even before the time that he existed (before which he had no input into the decision or events), then the man is not responsible for the unavoidable action of robbing the bank. But God is. Robbing a bank is not a sin for God, because everything we have comes from Him. But for God to ordain that a man rob a bank is God making that man sin—which makes God the author of sin. Tell me what’s wrong with my scenario.”

His answer was that God does not determine the exact thing that the man does, but ordains a set of possible actions the man is allowed to choose from.

Remember that my pastor, whom I love dearly and respect even to this day, though I’m no longer a member of his church, is committed to Calvinism, and preaches whole sermons on the sovereignty of God and how no leaf on any tree wiggles without God being the one that makes it wiggle.


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[Derf B]

God being sovereign means that he can do anything that he wills to do that would not violate His nature or divine attributes!

I’d like to add that He not only CAN do anything He wills to do, but WILL ACCOMPLISH anything He wills to do, as long as it doesn’t violate His nature. I’m a little hesitant about the “divine attributes” part, because I’m not so sure everyone is in agreement as to what those are, so I’m not sure what you mean by it.


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[Derf B]

What was the "question" that caused you to ignore the scripture when the pastor answered you?
It seems silly to reject so much scripture, just because a local shepherd didn't answer a question to your satisfaction. Please share the one question that became your obstacle.

See my post here: What is "Sovereignty"??

You're missing a lot of the story. That question/answer wasn't the obstacle, it just confirmed what I had already surmised. But here's your chance to set things straight about sovereignty of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

I’d like to add that He not only CAN do anything He wills to do, but WILL ACCOMPLISH anything He wills to do, as long as it doesn’t violate His nature. I’m a little hesitant about the “divine attributes” part, because I’m not so sure everyone is in agreement as to what those are, so I’m not sure what you mean by it.


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God cannot act in any fashion that means that any of his attributes come into conflict against each other!

 

[Particular]

See my post here: What is "Sovereignty"??

You're missing a lot of the story. That question/answer wasn't the obstacle, it just confirmed what I had already surmised. But here's your chance to set things straight about sovereignty of God.

You are dodging and avoiding by not directly answering what I asked.
You said you had one question, which you claim a Calvinist pastor did not answer to your satisfaction. I am simply asking you this:
What was the question you asked the pastor?
Was it that you gave him a hypothetical scenario that he didn't satisfy in his hypothetical answer? Is that the entire reason you reject the full Sovereignty of God? Come now, it cannot be that simplistic.

 

[Derf B]

You are dodging and avoiding by not directly answering what I asked.
You said you had one question, which you claim a Calvinist pastor did not answer to your satisfaction. I am simply asking you this:
What was the question you asked the pastor?
Was it that you gave him a hypothetical scenario that he didn't satisfy in his hypothetical answer? Is that the entire reason you reject the full Sovereignty of God? Come now, it cannot be that simplistic.

I explained both that it wasn’t that simplistic, and I provided a link to the post where I answered your question. @1689Dave had already asked the same question you had, and had been involved in the conversation already, so it makes more sense to direct it at him.

Feel free to click on the link in my previous response to you.

And by the way, I’d love to hear from you how “the full sovereignty of God” differs from “the sovereignty of God”.
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[AustinC]

I explained both that it wasn’t that simplistic, and I provided a link to the post where I answered your question. @1689Dave had already asked the same question you had, and had been involved in the conversation already, so it makes more sense to direct it at him.

Feel free to click on the link in my previous response to you.

And by the way, I’d love to hear from you how “the full sovereignty of God” differs from “the sovereignty of God”.
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I have read the post. It doesn't seem like a question. It's just a hypothetical assertion in which you seem to want a hypothetical answer that matches whatever your preconceptions are.
So, did you not actually have a question? I don't see a question and moreso, dave didn't see the question either so that makes at least two people here who are attempting to figure out what question you asked the pastor.
But, perhaps you don't remember the question. I assume this was years ago.

 

[Derf B]

I have read the post. It doesn't seem like a question. It's just a hypothetical assertion in which you seem to want a hypothetical answer that matches whatever your preconceptions are.
So, did you not actually have a question? I don't see a question and moreso, dave didn't see the question either so that makes at least two people here who are attempting to figure out what question you asked the pastor.
But, perhaps you don't remember the question. I assume this was years ago.

Did you actually talk to Dave? I didn’t see a response from him.

Are you able to offer a different take than what my pastor offered?


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[1689Dave]

He didn’t dodge it. He answered well. But the answer did not support his very strong commitment to Calvinism.

It was related to Sovereignty, so I’ll let you take a shot, assuming I can remember the whole thing (it was several years ago). Please note that this was not what led me away from Calvinism, as I was not in agreement with it all, but some things, including the definition of sovereignty, have been a question for me for a while.

The scenario was a simple one. “If God is absolutely sovereign, and He has known what everyone will do from the foundation of the world, then Calvin was right, along with the Westminster confession, that God had to have ordained every single act of everyone for all time, right?

“Based on that, if a person robs a bank, the events that lead up to him robbing the bank are unavoidable, his robbing of the bank as a reaction to those events is unavoidable, and therefore, since it was always unavoidable, from even before the time that he existed (before which he had no input into the decision or events), then the man is not responsible for the unavoidable action of robbing the bank. But God is. Robbing a bank is not a sin for God, because everything we have comes from Him. But for God to ordain that a man rob a bank is God making that man sin—which makes God the author of sin. Tell me what’s wrong with my scenario.”

His answer was that God does not determine the exact thing that the man does, but ordains a set of possible actions the man is allowed to choose from.

Remember that my pastor, whom I love dearly and respect even to this day, though I’m no longer a member of his church, is committed to Calvinism, and preaches whole sermons on the sovereignty of God and how no leaf on any tree wiggles without God being the one that makes it wiggle.


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Based on Adam's imputed sin in all, God hardens hearts and causes people to sin. God cannot sin in doing this. Because sin is a violation of his law for mankind, not himself. And there is no god above him, dictating a law for him to disobey.

 

[Derf B]

Based on Adam's imputed sin in all, God hardens hearts and causes people to sin. God cannot sin in doing this. Because sin is a violation of his law for mankind, not himself. And there is no god above him, dictating a law for him to disobey.

That’s your answer? That’s doing better than my pastor did? Hahahahahahahaha!
I thought you were a big 1689 confession guy. Don’t you read it?
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;

What about the Bible? Don’t you read it?
James 1:13-15 (KJV) 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do I have to do your work for you?


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[1689Dave]

That’s your answer? That’s doing better than my pastor did? Hahahahahahahaha!
I thought you were a big 1689 confession guy. Don’t you read it?
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;

What about the Bible? Don’t you read it?
James 1:13-15 (KJV) 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do I have to do your work for you?


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The big point is, God created sin. He caused it to happen. But Adam and the rest of us are the authors of sin.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (NCPB)

Gordon Clark says;

1. God's sovereignty means He is the sole ultimate cause of everything, including sin.
2. Being the cause of sin is different from being the author, or immediate cause, or first cause, or committer, of sin.
3. The sinner who commits the sin is responsible for the sin, not God.
4. God being the cause of sin is not sinful because God's actions are themselves the definition of what is right and just.

Is God the Author of Sin? - Gordon Clark's Answer

 

[Derf B]

• God's sovereignty means He is the sole ultimate cause of everything, including sin.

• Being the cause of sin is different from being the author, or immediate cause, or first cause, or committer, of sin.

• The sinner who commits the sin is responsible for the sin, not God.

• God being the cause of sin is not sinful because God's actions are themselves the definition of what is right and just.

A quick definition: to “author” means “be the originator of; create.”

Unless sin is “very good”, or unless God did not finish His creation in 7 days, then you have a misunderstanding about God and sin. You and Dr Clark.

 

[1689Dave]

A quick definition: to “author” means “be the originator of; create.”

Unless sin is “very good”, or unless God did not finish His creation in 7 days, then you have a misunderstanding about God and sin. You and Dr Clark.

You are changing the definition to suit you. I gave the definition according to Gordon Clark's description of it. You should honestly define the word by his use of it. More follows at the link I posted. Think of it this way. God created evil when he created Adam. But Adam was the author of his sin because it is exactly the actions he chose to use. Just as authors choose their words.