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Thanks for jumping in, Calminian. I love the username!
My first response is, "Why is God required to know the future?" The bible doesn't ever say God knows the future, except where it talks about what He plans to do.....
Before the free agent exists? On what basis does God know it? Is the action independent of the agent, i.e., exists before the agent does? If so, then the agent isn't free, but dependent on the action.No from what I've read. I see many predictions of what others will do from Christ to Antichrist and everyone in-between. Look at Joseph's prophetic dreams. Look at Daniel's.
But again, why do you believe it's impossible for God to know what a free-agent will do?
Before the free agent exists? On what basis does God know it?
What if God's actions were known before He decided to do them? ..
On what basis do you define omniscience? Do you apply the word without caveat? Why?Omniscience. But what basis do you deny his omniscience?
Tell me this. Can God destroy a city before it is built? If not, then He's subject to time, in that sense. He's not subject to time in the sense that we are, where we get older and more decrepit.Then He wouldn't be timeless, nor could He be the creator of time. But He is timeless and the creator of time. Do you believe in a god who is subject to time?
On what basis do you define omniscience? Do you apply the word without caveat? Why?
I assume you are referring to this verse:As God knowing the future. That's how Scripture describes God, knowing the beginning from the end.
I assume you are referring to this verse:
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
But if you read that verse, God tells us on what basis He knows the end (not the "future", mind you, but the "end"). He's telling us the "things...not yet done", saying "I will do all my pleasure." This verse confirms what I was saying--that God knows based on what He plans to accomplish. Otherwise, it confirms what @1689Dave was saying, that God takes pleasure in sin, if you apply it to everything.
Where does scripture state that God created sin, as you have very clearly asserted. I'm just a third party looking to see where you get evidence for your claim. I appreciate context around a verse so if you would kindly quote the passage and point out the verse that would be helpful.From your view only. Scripture fully supports my claims.
Does God not tell us the future and exactly what will happen? Many prophets gave exact information to the King's of Israel and Judah that came true. The exact name of the Persian King that would bring exiles back to Jerusalem was foretold well over a century before his birth. There seems to be no question about God knowing the exact future. Therefore, it would be good of you to answer Calminians question.Thanks for jumping in, Calminian. I love the username!
My first response is, "Why is God required to know the future?" The bible doesn't ever say God knows the future, except where it talks about what He plans to do. In other words, He knows what He will accomplish, and He knows that He will accomplish it. But unless the future is a fixed thing, that He Himself cannot change (else it wouldn't be a fixed thing), it must be an unfixed thing.
There are two ways a fixed future could work, as I've outlined above.
1. Calvinism: Where God ordains all that comes to pass, including being the author of sin (@1689Dave is consistent here!)
2. Arminianism: Where God can see the future, but doesn't determine it. It is already determined before man exists (or Satan), and it is unchangeable.
#2 may be offensive to Arminians, but think of it this way. Can God prevent an event that He has foreseen by looking into the future? If so, then the future's not fixed. If not, the future is, but God is powerless against it. The remedy, while still maintaining a fixed future, is that God determined everything--let that sink in--that was ever going to happen. That's Calvinism, which has God as the author of sin, as Dave pointed out so clearly.
This conundrum results from the supposition that God knows everything about the future, even what you are going to eat for breakfast 10 years from now. If the future is fixed, then it's fixed.
God can't both know something is going to happen in the future and prevent it from happening.
Of these things, Peter's denial is the hardest, so I'll save that til last.But you haven't addressed my initial point, that God also prophesies about what others will do. He prophesied about what Judas would do. Peter's choices were prophesied by Jesus. The donkey owner who offered his donkey to Jesus was foretold.
How do these fit into God's inability to know the future?
[Isa 41:2-4 KJV] 2 Who raised up the righteous [man] from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made [him] rule over kings? he gave [them] as the dust to his sword, [and] as driven stubble to his bow. 3 He pursued them, [and] passed safely; [even] by the way [that] he had not gone with his feet. 4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.Does God not tell us the future and exactly what will happen? Many prophets gave exact information to the King's of Israel and Judah that came true. The exact name of the Persian King that would bring exiles back to Jerusalem was foretold well over a century before his birth. There seems to be no question about God knowing the exact future. Therefore, it would be good of you to answer Calminians question.
Of these things, Peter's denial is the hardest.....
Shall we review a couple of those scriptures? Like when God told Hezekiah he was going to die of the sickness, and then said he would recover from the sickness? If God really knew Hezekiah's future (15 more years), why did it take Him 2 tries to get it right?Only for open theists. it's not hard for the rest of us.
I get OT arguments. They view freely chosen future events as logically unknowable (kind of like God not being able to lie or make a square circle). I would simply argue that Scripture demonstrates this is not the case. You can go back and try to explain them away, or just accept the awesomeness of God.
Shall we review a couple of those scriptures? Like when God told Hezekiah he was going to die of the sickness, and then said he would recover from the sickness? If God really knew Hezekiah's future (15 more years), why did it take Him 2 tries to get it right?
Are you saying that God is not awesome if He relates to people in time?
[Isa 41:2-4 KJV] 2 Who raised up the righteous [man] from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made [him] rule over kings? he gave [them] as the dust to his sword, [and] as driven stubble to his bow. 3 He pursued them, [and] passed safely; [even] by the way [that] he had not gone with his feet. 4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
[Isa 44:28 KJV] 28 That saith of Cyrus, [He is] my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
God knew what Cyrus was going to do because He was going to make sure it happened. And is it hard to find someone named Cyrus to do this? Cyrus was not the first ruler of that name. He was the second. Cyrus the second, grandson of Cyrus the first, I believe, is the one that let the Jews go home. He may have other Cyruses to choose from, but more likely He sent someone to tell them what to name him. It might be kind of like calling for a prophet named "John" to be the forerunner of Jesus. Those named "John" were plentiful in that time, it seems.
Yikes this argument makes no sense. Nor does i make sense you go to Hezekiah in light of the examples I gave you. But this is what this view does to people. I suggest moving away from it.
I answered those example of yours. Why won't you answer mine?Yikes this argument makes no sense. Nor does i make sense you go to Hezekiah in light of the examples I gave you. But this is what this view does to people. I suggest moving away from it.
I guess I have a similar question for you. Why does God's sovereignty need to depend on His knowing the future exhaustively, such that even you, apparently, are willing to say God is the author of sin, since He is ordaining events in response to things humans do, but the humans are not yet around to do them.Are you claiming the prophets were just guessing by their own theories?
The verses you quote and bold all point to a Sovereign God who ordained the events from before the foundations of the world.
May I ask, why would you want to worship a weak and unknowing God?
This is a nice caricature, but if it helps you avoid the contradictions of your theology, I guess you can use it. I don't reject the deity of Christ, nor do I think God is made in the image of man. But I do believe man is made in the image of God, and God is a creative and responsive and relational being. What part of man do you think is made in God's image, if everything man does was ordained before the foundation of the world?Yes, open theism is just liberalism in disguise. It leads down the bunny trail to rejecting the deity of Christ and lifting up man over God so that God is made in the likeness of man rather than man being made in the likeness of God.
I guess I have a similar question for you. Why does God's sovereignty need to depend on His knowing the future exhaustively, such that even you, apparently, are willing to say God is the author of sin, since He is ordaining events in response to things humans do, but the humans are not yet around to do them.
The only way that can work is if God is doing it in a general fashion, i.e., that he knows humans will sin, but not the exact sins they will commit. He knows some will repent, but He doesn't know which ones. He knows many will be saved, and many will be damned, but He doesn't write their name in heaven until He meets them and gets to know them.
And no, the prophets were giving the actual words of God. If it looks like guessing to you (it doesn't to me), then you are claiming God is guessing? The verses I pointed to were not written before the foundation of the world. Why would you assume they say that the events were all determined before the foundation of the world? That's a rather large leap in interpretation, don't you think?
God knows ME. Not something He dreamed up to follow a script before He created me. God knew Adam, but He didn't know what Adam would call the animals.
[Gen 2:19 KJV] 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
God made Adam to be a thinker, to be creative with the things God made, and God seemed to delight in watching him. Does God know what I'll eat for breakfast tomorrow? Maybe. He could make sure I eat a particular thing by fencing off the other choices in some way (like making them spoil before tomorrow). But does an omnipotent God really have to decide (ordain) before the foundation of the world what I'm going to have for breakfast every day of my life?