What is the difference?

[Herald]

But the sinner is called to do something; he is called to believe. When God calls the sinner, the sinner responds with his whole person. Spiritually it is God who accomplishes the work of regeneration. But the Bible says, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved". The individual must believe. That belief is not a work of man, it is a response to God; or better yet a consequence.

God does not create robots or automatons. He creates subjects that will serve Him freely with their who being.

 

[Van]

What he said

But the sinner is called to do something; he is called to believe. When God calls the sinner, the sinner responds with his whole person. Spiritually it is God who accomplishes the work of regeneration. But the Bible says, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved". The individual must believe. That belief is not a work of man, it is a response to God; or better yet a consequence.

God does not create robots or automatons. He creates subjects that will serve Him freely with their who being.

Herald, I agree with you, we are called up to believe in Christ Jesus, to trust Him alone for our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8-9. You do not go into a room through a door unless you go through the door first. Thus our faith provides our access (i.e. the door) to the grace in which we stand (i.e. our salvation). Romans 5:2.

Here we have an effort to say we are regenerated before we are made alive in Christ. Not how scripture reads. The washing of regeneration occurs after we are baptized spiritually into Christ, referred to as the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (our sin burden) is removed. We arise in Christ a new creation with a clean conscious, being holy and blameless in Christ.

But for us to be placed or baptized spiritually into Christ, God must choose us for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ, and faith in the truth, i.e. God must credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.

One little nip pick, faith is not works (with an "S") rather than saying it is not work (singular.) (Romans 3:28)

 

[Herald]

Herald, I agree with you, we are called up to believe in Christ Jesus, to trust Him alone for our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8-9. You do not go into a room through a door unless you go through the door first. Thus our faith provides our access (i.e. the door) to the grace in which we stand (i.e. our salvation). Romans 5:2.

Here we have an effort to say we are regenerated before we are made alive in Christ. Not how scripture reads. The washing of regeneration occurs after we are baptized spiritually into Christ, referred to as the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (our sin burden) is removed. We arise in Christ a new creation with a clean conscious, being holy and blameless in Christ.

But for us to be placed or baptized spiritually into Christ, God must choose us for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ, and faith in the truth, i.e. God must credit our faith in Christ as righteousness.

One little nip pick, faith is not works (with an "S") rather than saying it is not work (singular.) (Romans 3:28)

Van,

As a Calvinist who believes in regeneration preceding faith/belief, I do not discount the fact that a person must believe. Scripture is clear, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent," (Acts 17:30). Along with true repentance comes faith/belief. Of course I believe that those whom the Father calls will repent and believe; not because He foresaw they would but because He ordained them to. That qualification aside I gladly affirm that a person must repent and believe. They do so (as I attempted to write previously) as a consequence of regeneration; of God changing their heart.

I do not mean to hijack this thread, so forgive me if I take some license. Here is a learning moment for the opponents of Calvinism. Calvinists believe firmly in the preaching of the gospel to all who will listen. That message includes "repent and believe!". Because we believe that it is God who gives the ability to do both, we proclaim the message with great joy and expectation. Imagine that every time the gospel is presented the Lord may bring in one of His lost sheep! If that does not get a minister of the gospel excited then I do not know what will. Okay, hijack over.

 

[Van]

Mistaken views

Van,

As a Calvinist who believes in regeneration preceding faith/belief, I do not discount the fact that a person must believe. Scripture is clear, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent," (Acts 17:30). Along with true repentance comes faith/belief. Of course I believe that those whom the Father calls will repent and believe; not because He foresaw they would but because He ordained them to. That qualification aside I gladly affirm that a person must repent and believe. They do so (as I attempted to write previously) as a consequence of regeneration; of God changing their heart.

I do not mean to hijack this thread, so forgive me if I take some license. Here is a learning moment for the opponents of Calvinism. Calvinists believe firmly in the preaching of the gospel to all who will listen. That message includes "repent and believe!". Because we believe that it is God who gives the ability to do both, we proclaim the message with great joy and expectation. Imagine that every time the gospel is presented the Lord may bring in one of His lost sheep! If that does not get a minister of the gospel excited then I do not know what will. Okay, hijack over.

Calvinists say they believe the Bible but they do not. Does God desire all men to be saved or some men to be saved. Calvinism says some men. Did Christ lay down His life as a ransom for all, or a ransom for some? Calvinism says some.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith. Thus we have faith before we are saved by grace. Calvinism says we are saved by grace and given faith.

Regeneration occurs after we are spiritually placed in Christ, for we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5, not before we are put in Christ, not before we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

It is no secret Calvinists say they believing in preaching Christ crucified to the whole world. And it is no secret that when they preach, they hide their doctrines in code words.

But lets look at a few verses: Matthew 23:13, unregenerate men are entering heaven. How is that possible unless they have be enabled by "irresistible grace?" It is not. But they are blocked by false teachings. Thus the grace was not irresistible.

John 3:16, For God loved the world in this way. Calvinism quotes this verse but does not mention "world" means elect and not fallen mankind. Thus they say the same thing but believe in a radically different thing then what the people hearing think they are saying.

 

[psalms109:31]

Only the sap of the trunk can make the branch grow. He who gave you faith at the first must give you more faith if
you are to become strong in it. Yet there is the parallel Truth of God never to be forgotten—that while faith is the gift
of God—it is, also, our own act! The Holy Spirit works faith in us, but we, ourselves, believe. The Holy Spirit does not
believe for us—what has He to believe? It would be altogether absurd to conceive of the Holy Spirit as believing or
repenting! Nor, if such a thing were possible, could it be of any benefit to us, for the faith which saves the soul must be
personal and cannot be performed by proxy. Faith is both God’s gift and man’s act. The Lord is the Author of our faith,
but we, ourselves, believe.
In the same manner, though the strengthening of our faith will come through the Spirit of God, yet must it be our
own act and deed—we must, ourselves, believe more firmly, and our own heart must be exercised to attain to the highest
privilege. As unbelief is a sin for which the unbeliever must be held responsible, even so is the feebleness of faith a fault for
which we are blameworthy. We are duty bound to believe in God without wavering and if we neglect the matter we shall
be held guilty concerning it. It is our duty to believe and to believe in the highest degree—and though some professors
can never see the consistency of the two statements that faith is the gift of God and yet the duty of man—we are sure that
the one is as true as the other.

C.H. Spurgeon
Strong Faith Sermon #1367

"I have laid stress upon a personal appropriation, for each man eats for himself, not for anyone else. You cannot eat
for anybody but yourself. And so, in taking Christ, you take Him for yourself. Faith is your own act and deed—nobody
can believe for you, nor can you savingly believe for another. I say it with reverence—the Holy Spirit, Himself, cannot
believe for us, although He can, and does, lead us to believe. And, indeed, if the Divine Spirit did believe for us, we should
not obtain the promise, since it is not made to proxy faith, but solely and alone to personal believing. We are not passive."

C.H. Spurgeon

Sermon #1288 Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit 1

Romans 10:16-18
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 However, they did not all heed the [Or gospel]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.

It is ridiculous to me to believe you have life before the words of life where our faith comes from God through His word and the words about Him.

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

The person who has never heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed has no life in them they are dead headed for destruction and they need the words of life to live not your feelings about you not being able to reach them with that life.

They are dead for not hearing the Gospel of their salvation having believed no other reason.

 

[Tom Butler]

May I inject one other question into the discussion?

John 3:16 says whoever believes IN him shall not perish.
Acts 16:31 says one must believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. KJV

The NIV and ESV says believe IN the Lord Jesus Christ.

Are these just two different ways of saying the same thing, or is there a difference between believing IN and believing ON?

 

[Van]

Hi Tom, in Acts 16:31 the translations I compare are split, half having "on" (HCSB, YLT, NKJV) and the others (NASB, WEB, NET) having in. The Greek word is "epi" which is translated mostly as "on" but second as "in."

According to Thayers, Acts 16:31 "epi" is used of toward a person or thing after verbs of trusting or hoping. The NET footnote says, "Here the summary term of response is a call to believe. In this context it refers to trusting the sovereign God’s power to deliver, which events had just pictured for the jailer." In summary, the idea seems to be "direct your believing to Jesus" which carries the idea of removing your trust from something else (i.e. the works of the Law).

Now in John 3:16, all six of the versions have "in" and the Greek word is "eis" most translated as "into" but is translated as "in" 138 times versus as "on" 58 times in the KJV. Here the idea, in my opinion, goes beyond directing our believing toward Jesus, no here the idea is believing all the way "into" Jesus, with the result we shall not perish but have eternal life. So included in the concept of believing into Christ is God crediting our faith as righteousness and placing us "into" Christ spiritually. So the idea here is faith that God credits, and therefore results in salvation.

 

[Van]

Two other verses that refer to being put "into" Christ are Acts 19:4 and Galatians 3:27. In Galatians 3:27 if we have been baptized into Christ, i.e. saved, born anew, we should put on Christ. One translation (HCSB) says put on Christ like a garment. How do we who have been saved, after believing into Christ, put on Christ? Recall we are to make disciples teaching them all Christ has instructed. Thus we are to learn and make our own all the instructions of Christ. This striving to become like Christ, of learning and mirroring Christ is putting on Christ, in my opinion.

 

[kyredneck]

Two words have two completely different meanings as it relates to salvation in my view.

Often the word "accept" is used: Accept the Lord as your savior. Accept Christ into your life. ...

However, the problem is this word is NOT Scriptural.....

This is the scriptural order:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1

The big "I" is the big error of synergism.

 

[kyredneck]

The one Greek reference in the NT "accept" in Acts 24:3 is apodechomai which means to "to accept from, RECEIVE; to accept what is offered from without". The word in John 1:12, lambanomeans the same thing and even has the meaning "to take" "not refuse or reject", "admit to" "to choose".

And of course, in John 1:12, the RECEIVING came BEFORE the power was given, which is why Calvinists never quote John 1:12 with John 1:13.

"Mommy, Daddy, would you please conceive me so that I can be born?"

 

[psalms109:31]

It is the new creation changed by His word that is chosen before the foundation of the world, not the old creation. The old creation is dead and will and is perishing right before us decaying every moment. We as believers are receiving the outcome of our faith the salvation of our soul, while the old creation is dead

Paul never claimed an unbeliever chosen before the foundation of the world, when Paul did speak about chosen before the foundation of the world he was talking to believers not unbelievers

 

[Van]

Calvinism gets the cart before the horse once again, so they claim those who see it the other way have it wrong with snarky remarks like "Mommy, Daddy would you please conceive me so I can be born."

But scripture is clear, only after we have believed are we then given the right to become children of God. If we had been chosen as individuals without faith in the truth, as Calvinism claims, the verse would read before you believed you were given the right to become children of God.
Not how it reads. LOL

 

[Winman]

Calvinism gets the cart before the horse once again, so they claim those who see it the other way have it wrong with snarky remarks like "Mommy, Daddy would you please conceive me so I can be born."

But scripture is clear, only after we have believed are we then given the right to become children of God. If we had been chosen as individuals without faith in the truth, as Calvinism claims, the verse would read before you believed you were given the right to become children of God.
Not how it reads. LOL

Actually, it takes TWO to be born again, just like it takes two for physical birth.

The scriptures say a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. This is seen in the children. The children are made from both their mother and their father, yet they are a new creation altogether. The child is not his parents, but a complete individual.

Likewise, man has his own spirit. When we trust Christ we are cleansed and joined (married) to the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The moment we believe we are baptized into the Spirit. We are now born again. We are not God, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We are now a new creation. We are not our old man, and we are not God, but we are a new individual sharing in both.

Calvinists do not see that we give consent in scripture, but it is clearly shown.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The moment we believe, we are dead to the law that we might be married to Jesus. We are now "one spirit", we are born again, a new creation.

We do this by mutual consent, just as our earthly parents married and came together to physically create us.

 

[Van]

The moment we believe we are baptized into the Spirit. We are now born again. We are not God, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

This glosses over God crediting our faith as righteousness and setting us apart in Christ. Then we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation. Then we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

If God does not credit our faith, we are not married to the Spirit of Christ, because we are not in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
The automatic salvation upon professing some level of commitment to Christ is unbiblical. Matthew 7:21-23 teaches folks can be active in ministry and still not be in Christ.

We do not become partakers of the divine nature, i.e. indwelt with the Holy Spirit, until God credits our faith in the truth as righteousness and sets us apart in Christ. We can hear and understand the gospel, i.e. taste the divine gift, but God alone puts us in Christ.

Bottom line, God puts us in Christ, 1 Peter 1:30, we do not put ourselves in by willing to be saved, Romans 9:16.

The OP was concerned with what we do with the gospel when we hear it. Do we believe because of irresistible grace, or do we take it and make it our own, i.e. receive, accept, welcome, and learn it. Scripture says we do, but it is what God does with our faith, flawed as it is, that determines whether or not He puts us in Christ.

 

[Herald]

Calvinists say they believe the Bible but they do not.

So, why not come out and say what you know you want to say, that Calvinists are not Christians because we do not believe the Bible.

 

[Van]

Great Question

So, why not come out and say what you know you want to say, that Calvinists are not Christians because we do not believe the Bible.

Does salvation depend on having your doctrine perfect, or on having a love of Christ in your heart. I happen to know Reformed Christians who run circles around me in the level of dedication to our Lord. They manifest the fruit of the Spirit far beyond anything I am able to find in my own life.

The issue Herald, is not that the mistaken doctrine means God did not find your faith sufficient for His purpose and credit it as righteousness, the issue is that your doctrine hinders the ministry of Christ. Advocating nonsense results in people being turned away. You have God predestining everything and no one able to believe, yours is a doctrine of futility. We are to adorn the gospel, not make God into someone who torments people for the sins He predestined and caused.

 

[Herald]

Does salvation depend on having your doctrine perfect, or on having a love of Christ in your heart. I happen to know Reformed Christians who run circles around me in the level of dedication to our Lord. They manifest the fruit of the Spirit far beyond anything I am able to find in my own life.

The issue Herald, is not that the mistaken doctrine means God did not find your faith sufficient for His purpose and credit it as righteousness, the issue is that your doctrine hinders the ministry of Christ. Advocating nonsense results in people being turned away. You have God predestining everything and no one able to believe, yours is a doctrine of futility. We are to adorn the gospel, not make God into someone who torments people for the sins He predestined and caused.

You made a specific accusation that Calvinists do not believe the Bible. The Gospel is contained in the Bible. If a person does not believe the Gospel they cannot be saved. Either stand by your accusation or retract it.

 

[Iconoclast]

You made a specific accusation that Calvinists do not believe the Bible. The Gospel is contained in the Bible. If a person does not believe the Gospel they cannot be saved. Either stand by your accusation or retract it.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by saturneptune
One either believes or they do not. If they do, it was because of the work of the Holy Spirit, not because you and I decided to accept something.

What was the Holy Spirit working for if not to have one accept the truth in love and believe by their own volition???

What's the point of working for something that's already been accomplished from before time began?

 

[agedman]

1) Whether we are believing, a verb, accepting, a verb, or receiving, a verb, we are the one doing the action.

And those were the ones on whom seed was sown on good soil, and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.

No need to rewrite the verse to say those who have the word implanted and are cultivated and watered with irresistible grace, receive it....

Calvinism is a mistaken unbiblical doctrine refuted by scripture after scripture, including Mark 4:20.

I do wish folks would stop trying to insert a "word of refutation" when it really isn't necessary.

Take a hard look at Hebrews 12:6, does the word mean believe or receive (accept and not cast out). Note how well the idea of to take and make His own, fits the bill. Another idea conveyed by the word is to learn something taught, thus to receive and accept and welcome also indicates to learn it and make it your own.

Hebrews 12:

"4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons."

​

This passage really has nothing to do with the OP of the BELIEVER.

However, because you pointed it out, lets make this obvious to the casual reader.

The passage is to the BELIEVER - not the lost.

Who GIVES the chosen to Christ? GOD - not the believer's free choice / will.

It is clear in Scriptures as Christ states that He RECEIVES from God ("all that the Father GIVES me...").

You also brought up Mark 4.

Try as some might to show how the dirt is cultivated by the dirt, on this thread (contrary to even rational thinking) a part of Mark 4 that seems to be very often ignored when discussing the parable are these words:

10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.”

​

Now, does it not seem directly purposed that God in Christ is showing how some are actually PREVENTED from forgiveness?

Is this not contrary to one of the great supporting beams of the free choice / will folks?

If God "wants everyone saved" then why is Christ very specific that some are left out of the message and only given short stories?

If God "wants all to be saved" would Christ who died to save "ALL" not prevent the understanding and perception of the heathen?

Perhaps those who accept (mind activity) can come to believe. For one can accept cause and effect situations.

However, belief is far more than rational acceptance.

Belief is seeing the foolishness of the Cross as the power of God.

Accept is seeing a cross and acknowledging people were crucified.

Belief is perception and understanding that can both seem irrationally out of perspective by one that mentally accepts the facts.