What is the Gospel?

[Tenchi]

This has nothing to do with the topic. I said God knows our hearts and you agree.

No, you wrote that it "goes beyond what is disclosed in Scripture" to say that God knows our thoughts. I supplied verses that indicate this isn't so.

The key issue of our dispute, is whether Abraham or his faith was credited as righteousness. No one is made righteous, except by the blood of the Lamb, He paid the debt owed due to our unrighteousness, and therefore when we are placed into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, we are made righteous, blameless, as our sin burden, what God required due to our sin, has been removed, nailed to the cross so to speak.

Under the New Covenant, what you've written about being made righteous in Jesus Christ is true. But Abraham did not live under this covenant. He did not even live under the OT Mosaic covenant. And so, when he trusted God, Abraham's faith was counted to him by God as righteousness.

The Biblical Gospel offers the opportunity to be reconciled to God, rather than the false gospel that claims there is nothing an individual can do to alter the foreordained outcome of his or her life.

I understand. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I would remark here that foreknowledge does not necessitate fore-ordination, or causation. It does not follow necessarily that God's foreknowledge of all events means He has caused/ordained them.

We are told to have a faith like Abraham's which was credited as righteousness. Our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior requires more than trusting in Christ's promises, it requires our full commitment and devotion to Christ as our Lord, such that we are willing to follow Christ no matter the cost.

This is a kind of works-salvation that rests one's salvation upon their "full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord" and upon one's ability to sacrifice oneself in pursuit of Christ "no matter the cost." The reality is that when anyone comes to Christ for salvation, however much they believe they are devoted to him, however much they are ready to sacrifice as they follow in his steps, what they will discover is that they don't have it in them, in their own self-directed willpower, in their own strength of mind and body, to live in the supernatural way that they must with God.

We all come to God for salvation profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6), bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, Col. 1:21), utterly unable to properly meet God's standard by ourselves (Matt. 5:48). What resolve can we supply, then, what powers of commitment and sacrifice can we offer to God, that He would accept? What He wants from us - perfection - He must first supply to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom we have no capacity to properly achieve God's standard whatever.

In light of these facts, it is very strange to read your version of how one is saved, locating, as you do, God's willingness to save us in our own degree of commitment to Him and our ability to sacrifice in pursuit of Christ.

The gospel is not fire insurance which you buy and put in your back pocket.

Has someone said that it is?

 

[kyredneck]

No, what I'm going to do is ignore you again. I showed you the plain scripture. Not wasting any more time on discussing this with you.

Good choice.

 

[kyredneck]

Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness back in Genesis 12.

Agree.

It was not a God hating totally depraved dead alien sinner that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years before Gen 15:6, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon.

It was not an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years before Gen 15:6

It was not to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years before Gen 15:6.

God had already wrought within him as revealed in Jn 3:21.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

 

[JesusFan]

??? I have no idea how you've come to ask this question in response to what I wrote.

Saying that I agree with you, as against those like Van who holds to a degree of Open Theism

 

[JesusFan]

No, you wrote that it "goes beyond what is disclosed in Scripture" to say that God knows our thoughts. I supplied verses that indicate this isn't so.



Under the New Covenant, what you've written about being made righteous in Jesus Christ is true. But Abraham did not live under this covenant. He did not even live under the OT Mosaic covenant. And so, when he trusted God, Abraham's faith was counted to him by God as righteousness.



I understand. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I would remark here that foreknowledge does not necessitate fore-ordination, or causation. It does not follow necessarily that God's foreknowledge of all events means He has caused/ordained them.



This is a kind of works-salvation that rests one's salvation upon their "full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord" and upon one's ability to sacrifice oneself in pursuit of Christ "no matter the cost." The reality is that when anyone comes to Christ for salvation, however much they believe they are devoted to him, however much they are ready to sacrifice as they follow in his steps, what they will discover is that they don't have it in them, in their own self-directed willpower, in their own strength of mind and body, to live in the supernatural way that they must with God.

We all come to God for salvation profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6), bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, Col. 1:21), utterly unable to properly meet God's standard by ourselves (Matt. 5:48). What resolve can we supply, then, what powers of commitment and sacrifice can we offer to God, that He would accept? What He wants from us - perfection - He must first supply to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom we have no capacity to properly achieve God's standard whatever.

In light of these facts, it is very strange to read your version of how one is saved, locating, as you do, God's willingness to save us in our own degree of commitment to Him and our ability to sacrifice in pursuit of Christ.



Has someone said that it is?

Based upon full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord", would any of us here posting actually merit our salvation? Van seems to have a mixture of Open Theism and extreme Lordship salvation mixing together now

 

[Van]

False claims:
1) "Our faith is never described as worthless."
1 Corinthians 15:17
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
2 Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, worthless in regard to the faith.
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Hebrews 6:1-8 addresses worthless faith that produces thorns.
James 1:26
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Obviously if we believe in another gospel, if is worthless. If our belief is superficial, rather than heart-felt, it is worthless. If our faith does not make Christ the overriding priority of our life, it is worthless. See Matthew 13.

2) You [Van]"have carefully omitted part of Romans 9:16." How does God have mercy? See Romans 9:24.

3) "No Calvinist says this mercy is based on nothing." Unconditional Election results in God having mercy.

4) "not because of whatever we may think we can do for him, which is what you imagine:" I said our election was not based on what we will or do, such as doing something for God, yet this poster charges me with the exact opposite.

5) John 6:37 says people "come to Him" referring to a change in spiritual location, not an acceptance of His gospel.

6) Next the poster says we come to Him relying on His free electing love. Actually Calvinism says we were elected unconditionally, and come to Him due to being compelled by irresistible grace.

7) Finally this poster claims we come to Him with nothing God would want, such as belief in and devotion to Christ.
1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

 

[Van]

No, you wrote that it "goes beyond what is disclosed in Scripture" to say that God knows our thoughts. I supplied verses that indicate this isn't so.



Under the New Covenant, what you've written about being made righteous in Jesus Christ is true. But Abraham did not live under this covenant. He did not even live under the OT Mosaic covenant. And so, when he trusted God, Abraham's faith was counted to him by God as righteousness.



I understand. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I would remark here that foreknowledge does not necessitate fore-ordination, or causation. It does not follow necessarily that God's foreknowledge of all events means He has caused/ordained them.



This is a kind of works-salvation that rests one's salvation upon their "full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord" and upon one's ability to sacrifice oneself in pursuit of Christ "no matter the cost." The reality is that when anyone comes to Christ for salvation, however much they believe they are devoted to him, however much they are ready to sacrifice as they follow in his steps, what they will discover is that they don't have it in them, in their own self-directed willpower, in their own strength of mind and body, to live in the supernatural way that they must with God.

We all come to God for salvation profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6), bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, Col. 1:21), utterly unable to properly meet God's standard by ourselves (Matt. 5:48). What resolve can we supply, then, what powers of commitment and sacrifice can we offer to God, that He would accept? What He wants from us - perfection - He must first supply to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom we have no capacity to properly achieve God's standard whatever.

In light of these facts, it is very strange to read your version of how one is saved, locating, as you do, God's willingness to save us in our own degree of commitment to Him and our ability to sacrifice in pursuit of Christ.



Has someone said that it is?

LOL, you cited a verse that says God knows our thoughts from afar, and then you claim it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts. So you posted verses that proved my point, then claimed the opposite. Fiddlesticks

No, God crediting our faith as righteousness, is according to grace, not works, Romans 4:16

It is going beyond scripture to say to say God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future.

I did not claim Abraham was made righteous, I claimed His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, in the present. Thus God planned in the past for His Lamb of God to die, and then Christ was put to death by His predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.

Yes, when we place our faith and devotion upon Christ, we do not have within us the ability to live without stumbling, but in His grace, He still accepts us just as we are, and credits the faith of some, whom He saves, as righteousness.

 

[Tenchi]

LOL, you cited a verse that says God knows our thoughts from afar, and then you claim it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts.

I've never said that it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts, you did. I simply showed from Scripture that this isn't so. Please read my posts more carefully.

No, God crediting our faith as righteousness, is according to grace, not works, Romans 4:16

It is going beyond scripture to say to say God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future.

I did not claim Abraham was made righteous, I claimed His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, in the present. Thus God planned in the past for His Lamb of God to die, and then Christ was put to death by His predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.

Yes, when we place our faith and devotion upon Christ, we do not have within us the ability to live without stumbling, but in His grace, He still accepts us just as we are, and credits the faith of some, whom He saves, as righteousness.

None of this actually well-addresses the points I made in my last post to you. Mostly, you seem to be purposefully talking past them.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

False claims:
1) "Our faith is never described as worthless."
1 Corinthians 15:17
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

This is very interesting. Does "this poster" believe that Christ has not been raised? Please note what I wrote: "Our faith is never described as worthless." I wrote it on the basis of Christ having been raised, and I wrote it on the basis of "our faith" referring to Christians' faith. If Christ has not been raised, then "this poster" is absolutely right; our faith is indeed futile or worthless.

2 Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, worthless in regard to the faith.
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Hebrews 6:1-8 addresses worthless faith that produces thorns.
James 1:26
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Obviously if we believe in another gospel, if is worthless. If our belief is superficial, rather than heart-felt, it is worthless. If our faith does not make Christ the overriding priority of our life, it is worthless. See Matthew 13.

Well Paul wouldn't have done very well, would he? 'Although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man, but I obtained mercy.....' When we come to Christ, we come as we are - drunks, blasphemers, fornicators, drug addicts, tax dodgers, whatever we may be - and we come to the Christ who justifies the ungodly, and He does just that (Luke 18:13-14). But He doesn't leave us where He finds us. 'And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God' (1 Cor. 6:11). Now I expect that we all know people who have professed faith in Christ, and yet have never changed from what they were, and in due time they have fallen away. The reason is that they never really came to Christ. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would have remained with us.....' (1 John 2:19). These are the stony ground hearers and they thorny ground hearers of Matthew 13. They never truly belonged to Christ, and pretty soon they fell away.

2) You [Van]"have carefully omitted part of Romans 9:16." How does God have mercy? See Romans 9:24.

I'm glad you agree that God saves according to His mercy. You were previously saying that Calvinists believed that He saved based on nothing

3) "No Calvinist says this mercy is based on nothing." Unconditional Election results in God having mercy.

Indeed it does. Again, I'm glad you agree with me.

4) "not because of whatever we may think we can do for him, which is what you imagine:" I said our election was not based on what we will or do, such as doing something for God, yet this poster charges me with the exact opposite.

This is simply not true. I have posted what you said several times. Here you are again:

The point is His choice is not based solely on what we believe, but also on His recognition of our commitment and devotion to Christ, making Christ the overriding priority of our lives

Are you denying that you posted this? I can show you exactly where you did so. You plainly said that God's choice is based on what we will or do - our commitment and devotion. In other words, salvation by works, contra Eph. 2:8 etc.

5) John 6:37 says people "come to Him" referring to a change in spiritual location, not an acceptance of His gospel.

Really? So God will not turn away people who do not accept His Gospel? Hmmm.

6) Next the poster says we come to Him relying on His free electing love. Actually Calvinism says we were elected unconditionally, and come to Him due to being compelled by irresistible grace.

Jeremiah 31:3. 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.' We are not "compelled;" we are drawn irresistibly. God opens our hearts to receive the Gospel (Acts 16:14), and we come to Christ willingly (Psalm 110:3).

7) Finally this poster claims we come to Him with nothing God would want, such as belief in and devotion to Christ.
1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

At the point of salvation we have NOTHING that God would want - no works, no love, no obedience. He Himself gives us faith to believe (Eph. 2:8; 1 Cor. 4:7; Phil. 1:29), and we do believe and are justified by faith alone. But as I said above, God does not leave us where He found us. He takes away that old stony heart that preferred sin to righteousness, and gives us a new heart and a new spirit that loves the Lord and causes us to walk in His statutes (Ezek. 36:25-27). It is all of God and none of us. Praise Him for His mercy and love

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is going beyond scripture to say to say God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future.

Genesis 18:14; Psalm 139:1-6, esp. v.2

 

[Van]

I've never said that it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts, you did. I simply showed from Scripture that this isn't so. Please read my posts more carefully.



None of this actually well-addresses the points I made in my last post to you. Mostly, you seem to be purposefully talking past them.

I did not see anything needing a response.

 

[Van]

At the point of salvation we have NOTHING that God would want - no works, no love, no obedience. He Himself gives us faith to believe (Eph. 2:8; 1 Cor. 4:7; Phil. 1:29), and we do believe and are justified by faith alone. But as I said above, God does not leave us where He found us. He takes away that old stony heart that preferred sin to righteousness, and gives us a new heart and a new spirit that loves the Lord and causes us to walk in His statutes (Ezek. 36:25-27). It is all of God and none of us. Praise Him for His mercy and love

It is pointless to continue. This poster did not acknowledge error, but made deflections. Here is one, God's unconditional election is based on God's mercy. I kid you not.

Next, God makes His choice to save individuals on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness. This poster denies this fundamental truth of the gospel. This choice is according to grace, thus not on the basis of works, which is the false claim of Calvinism.

 

[Van]

Does Genesis 18:14 say "God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future?

Genesis 18:14 NASB
“Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”​

No, it says God will cause to happen what He declares will happen.

Does Psalm 139:1-6 say God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future? No, it addresses God's knowledge of David in the present, at the time David wrote the Psalm.

This practice of citing verses with no explanation of exactly how the support a premise is the sine quo non of false teachers.

 

[Tenchi]

I did not see anything needing a response.

Then why write anything at all?

 

[percho]

And Peter having opened his mouth, said, 'Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he who is fearing Him, and is working righteousness, is acceptable to Him; the word that he sent to the sons of Israel, proclaiming good news -- peace through Jesus Christ (this one is Lord of all,) ye -- ye have known; -- the word that came throughout all Judea, having begun from Galilee, after the baptism that John preached; Acts 10:34-37

And after the delivering up of John, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of the reign of God, and saying -- 'Fulfilled hath been the time, and the reign of God hath come nigh, reform ye, and believe in the good news.' Mark 1:14,15

1 Cor 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

Why did Paul preach what he preached in 1 Cor 15:1-4 ? Was the one who came to Galilee after John was put in prison flesh and blood? Was he the following Son spoken of, here? Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Was that Son, who came in the flesh by the water and the blood 1 John 4:2.3 and 5: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,

How did the flesh and blood Heir inherit the kingdom of God, the reign of God?

From 1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,


Are you flesh and blood? Yes or No.

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive. Matt 24:3,14

Age?

And Jesus answering said to them, 'The sons of this age do marry and are given in marriage, but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again. Luke 20:35,36

They will no longer be flesh and blood. Matt 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

 

[percho]

The Good News

Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:1-3

And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Acts 20:25

Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus. Acts 17:7


Brother Paul

Shortly after you departed Thessalonica, Brother's Larry, Curly and Mo fell asleep in Jesus, that is died in Christ. How are Brother's Larry, Curly and Mo going to enter, that is inherit, the kingdom of God, being Brother's Larry, Curly and Mo are dead?

Good news if you will.


Me thinks this was the plan before the foundation of the world.